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(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you

(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent. I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are aware.

derefr 17y ago
You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it, thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrutiny of your environment, this kind of accident may have an original cause that puts you somewhere in the "chain of responsibility", but what actually ended up doing the damage was pure probability and physics. These things are usually called "acts of God", or, to be more empirical, "acts of nature." Our evolutionary urges and drives are such an act. Why apologize for them? What are you actually apologizing for? Being unable to compensate for them?
- tim_chevalier 17y ago
  Sorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society. Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?
  - derefr 17y ago
    Yes, I would "accept" that—as a theoretical explanation. However, as a pure-determinist, I would also accept that people would be offended be her incivility, as their social mores would tell them to be in response. Likewise, rape is an evolutionary urge—but so is the urge to punish people for it, or prevent people from doing it. To simplify: there is no need to apologize for your urge to punch someone you don't like in the face. There is no need for them to apologize for defending themselves, or calling the police. Both make subjective sense. Apologies are for when you were wrong given your own perspective.
    - tim_chevalier 17y ago
      So if somebody raped your mother, it would make you happier if they felt no remorse than if they said they were sorry about what they'd done?
- sethg 17y ago
  I don't know what the law is in other states, but in Massachusetts, if the car in front of you stops suddenly and you rear-end it, you are considered 100% at fault. (Unless you can prove that the other car stopped with the intent to cause an accident. Good luck with that.)
teilo 17y ago
Anyone who is oogling should apologize. I make no excuse for those who refuse to reign in their male urges or who are obnoxious or creepy. What I don't apologize for is having the urge in the first place. As another commentor well said, you may as well apologize for a force of nature.

derefr 17y ago

You would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it, thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrutiny of your environment, this kind of accident may have an original cause that puts you somewhere in the "chain of responsibility", but what actually ended up doing the damage was pure probability and physics. These things are usually called "acts of God", or, to be more empirical, "acts of nature." Our evolutionary urges and drives are such an act. Why apologize for them? What are you actually apologizing for? Being unable to compensate for them?

tim_chevalier 17y ago
Sorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society. Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?
- derefr 17y ago
  Yes, I would "accept" that—as a theoretical explanation. However, as a pure-determinist, I would also accept that people would be offended be her incivility, as their social mores would tell them to be in response. Likewise, rape is an evolutionary urge—but so is the urge to punish people for it, or prevent people from doing it. To simplify: there is no need to apologize for your urge to punch someone you don't like in the face. There is no need for them to apologize for defending themselves, or calling the police. Both make subjective sense. Apologies are for when you were wrong given your own perspective.
  - tim_chevalier 17y ago
    So if somebody raped your mother, it would make you happier if they felt no remorse than if they said they were sorry about what they'd done?
sethg 17y ago
I don't know what the law is in other states, but in Massachusetts, if the car in front of you stops suddenly and you rear-end it, you are considered 100% at fault. (Unless you can prove that the other car stopped with the intent to cause an accident. Good luck with that.)

teilo 17y ago

Anyone who is oogling should apologize. I make no excuse for those who refuse to reign in their male urges or who are obnoxious or creepy. What I don't apologize for is having the urge in the first place. As another commentor well said, you may as well apologize for a force of nature.