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This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at nig

by x0054 13y ago

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not having any scroll bars on is preference because the only one it effects is the user. I think a more important question is, what kind of design are you using that people can not instinctually figure out that they need to scroll? If your site needs to be scrolled horizontally (and its not painfully obvious that that's the case) it's a bad design. And if your user can not figure out that they need to scroll vertically, the are an idiot, or it's a truly bad design. In the former case, stop catering to the stupidest 5% of the population. Just like with people who use IE 7 in 2013, you'll never be able to properly serve them. And if its because of your design, redesign the damn site rather then pushing your preference onto the user.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism". In truth, as product designers we make all kinds of decisions on behalf of our users. We use a system of judgement to rank the "goodness" and the "badness" of those decisions based on whether they make our user's lives easier or harder. (or make us more or less money, depending on your ethos) In what way does hiding the scrollbar improve anyone's lives? In the cases where it demonstrably makes user's lives harder, explain why that doesn't matter?
- x0054 13y ago
  Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is minor annoyance) 2. the presentation of too many choices is in fact, a real and well documented anti-pattern in UI-design. Too many choices is cognitive overload. Programmers like choices. programmers like power. but ordinary mortals don't care what colour their window title bars are, as long as the colour doesn't get in the way of their job. 3. Given the above, it is the UI designer's responsibility to be very opinionated about what the defaults of a system should be, and what should be configurable as a choice. (the fewer choices the better, generally, from a design perspective.) 4. as a corollary to that, I am aware that "some people" are uncomfortable about Apple's lack of configuration options. Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing a UI. Or you end up with a monstrosity like the desktop linux ecosystem. It's essentially an argument from ignorance of the research.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      >My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. That's a belief. I don't see any argument here. Why is it a mistake? Perhaps modern users, not tied to a legacy of scrollbars, could not care less about them? Perhaps 95% of users (with the exception of hackers) not even use them or notice them when they are there? >Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing a UI. Whereas you are? And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because?
      - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
        See argument upstream- in summary, autohiding scrollbars: Pros: Looks tidier sometimes Cons: Causes frustration and confusion. My question is: whose lives have been significantly improved by the addition of this feature? why does it exist? > Whereas you are? yes > And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because? because I am right and Apple is wrong. On top of that, the reaction to my position is so weird. Oh Zen, if you had your way we would be FORCED by your tyrannical fascist ways to look at ugly scrollbars ALL the time instead of just some of the time. :(
x0054 13y ago
I am of an opinion that one only needs a scroll bar when scrolling. On OSX the scroll bars are always visible when scrolling. You think you know better, and would like to overwrite my preference with yours. I don't think we will ever agree. I like options you like rules.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  What does autohiding the scrollbars add to your life? How does it improve it? You avoid this question. You have no answer. On the other hand, the presence of this option causes confusion and frustration, and, one could argue, significant economic harm as a result of the confusion and frustration. Why is your preference (which you have not, and possibly cannot explain) more important than the confusion and frustration of everyone else?
  - x0054 13y ago
    I think you have a strong preference in this case, and you wish to force your preference upon people in the name of the "common good." I'll let you figure out the definition of that behavior all on your own. Instead of arguing about your clear authoritarian tendencies, here is my main reasons why I think hiding scroll bars is a good idea: 1. Information Overload: You should only show user information when they need it. Users need to know how much of the document is remaining, or where they are currently located, when they are scrolling. If they need the data, they are but a touch away from it. 2. Scroll Bars create anxiety in users who are actually reading your website. If you are under slight time pressure, as most of us are at all times, you will concentrate on your own progress through the page, rather then engaging with the content. 3. Shifting: Even on operating systems where it is the convention to always show the scroll bar, the scroll bar still disappears when there is no scrollable content. Many, websites are centered, and they have a tendency to shift the center of the website by the width of the website when the scrollbar appears and disappears. I find that behavior annoying. 4. Shifting in text boxes: when the scroll bar appears, once you typed enough text to fill the box, the text has to reflow, in order to accommodate the new scroll bar. I find this very annoying and distracting. Finally, you keep referring to these mythical, internally confused people who keep reading only the tops of all the news articles and constantly wonder why the rest is cut off. Can you show me the following: 1. Any site that looks confusing on a mac without scroll bars. Something I can show to people and gauge their reaction. 2. Any study, article, or survey done on the subject that states that it's a severe problem. Not personal anecdotes, but actual evidence of some kind.

by x0054 13y ago

TheZenPsycho 13y ago

I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism". In truth, as product designers we make all kinds of decisions on behalf of our users. We use a system of judgement to rank the "goodness" and the "badness" of those decisions based on whether they make our user's lives easier or harder. (or make us more or less money, depending on your ethos) In what way does hiding the scrollbar improve anyone's lives? In the cases where it demonstrably makes user's lives harder, explain why that doesn't matter?

x0054 13y ago
Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  what "some people" argue is irrelevant here. Who are "some people" anyway? "Apple provides entirely too many user options" is not in any way the argument I've made. My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. If you want the generalised form of that argument, it is: 1. this, and other "preferences" are not arbitrary or meaningless. They have real consequences (even if the only real consequence is minor annoyance) 2. the presentation of too many choices is in fact, a real and well documented anti-pattern in UI-design. Too many choices is cognitive overload. Programmers like choices. programmers like power. but ordinary mortals don't care what colour their window title bars are, as long as the colour doesn't get in the way of their job. 3. Given the above, it is the UI designer's responsibility to be very opinionated about what the defaults of a system should be, and what should be configurable as a choice. (the fewer choices the better, generally, from a design perspective.) 4. as a corollary to that, I am aware that "some people" are uncomfortable about Apple's lack of configuration options. Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing a UI. Or you end up with a monstrosity like the desktop linux ecosystem. It's essentially an argument from ignorance of the research.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >My argument is that having this specific option is a mistake. That's a belief. I don't see any argument here. Why is it a mistake? Perhaps modern users, not tied to a legacy of scrollbars, could not care less about them? Perhaps 95% of users (with the exception of hackers) not even use them or notice them when they are there? >Those people are not designers, and should not ever be put in the position of designing a UI. Whereas you are? And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because?
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      See argument upstream- in summary, autohiding scrollbars: Pros: Looks tidier sometimes Cons: Causes frustration and confusion. My question is: whose lives have been significantly improved by the addition of this feature? why does it exist? > Whereas you are? yes > And we should take your opinion on scrollbars over Apple designer's one, because? because I am right and Apple is wrong. On top of that, the reaction to my position is so weird. Oh Zen, if you had your way we would be FORCED by your tyrannical fascist ways to look at ugly scrollbars ALL the time instead of just some of the time. :(

x0054 13y ago

I am of an opinion that one only needs a scroll bar when scrolling. On OSX the scroll bars are always visible when scrolling. You think you know better, and would like to overwrite my preference with yours. I don't think we will ever agree. I like options you like rules.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
What does autohiding the scrollbars add to your life? How does it improve it? You avoid this question. You have no answer. On the other hand, the presence of this option causes confusion and frustration, and, one could argue, significant economic harm as a result of the confusion and frustration. Why is your preference (which you have not, and possibly cannot explain) more important than the confusion and frustration of everyone else?
- x0054 13y ago
  I think you have a strong preference in this case, and you wish to force your preference upon people in the name of the "common good." I'll let you figure out the definition of that behavior all on your own. Instead of arguing about your clear authoritarian tendencies, here is my main reasons why I think hiding scroll bars is a good idea: 1. Information Overload: You should only show user information when they need it. Users need to know how much of the document is remaining, or where they are currently located, when they are scrolling. If they need the data, they are but a touch away from it. 2. Scroll Bars create anxiety in users who are actually reading your website. If you are under slight time pressure, as most of us are at all times, you will concentrate on your own progress through the page, rather then engaging with the content. 3. Shifting: Even on operating systems where it is the convention to always show the scroll bar, the scroll bar still disappears when there is no scrollable content. Many, websites are centered, and they have a tendency to shift the center of the website by the width of the website when the scrollbar appears and disappears. I find that behavior annoying. 4. Shifting in text boxes: when the scroll bar appears, once you typed enough text to fill the box, the text has to reflow, in order to accommodate the new scroll bar. I find this very annoying and distracting. Finally, you keep referring to these mythical, internally confused people who keep reading only the tops of all the news articles and constantly wonder why the rest is cut off. Can you show me the following: 1. Any site that looks confusing on a mac without scroll bars. Something I can show to people and gauge their reaction. 2. Any study, article, or survey done on the subject that states that it's a severe problem. Not personal anecdotes, but actual evidence of some kind.