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Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professiona
by teilo 17y ago
Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so.
A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those who do, very few understand that men are, essentially, helpless when it comes to their reaction (even, as I said, if it is a reaction that they suppress). Heterosexual men who do NOT have this aspect of male nature are in the vast minority, although thy do exist. It is a part of being male, and as such, I refuse to apologize for it.
- DanHulton 17y ago(Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent. I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are aware.
- derefr 17y agoYou would apologize if a tornado wrecked someone's home? If wild birds living in your acreage pooped on their car? If someone crashed their car (car C) because the car in front of you (car A) stopped, and you (car B) crashed into it, thereby causing all the cars behind you to do the same? All of these things are, at best, accidents. However, unlike normal accidents, where you could have prevented them by close scrutiny of your environment, this kind of accident may have an original cause that puts you somewhere in the "chain of responsibility", but what actually ended up doing the damage was pure probability and physics. These things are usually called "acts of God", or, to be more empirical, "acts of nature." Our evolutionary urges and drives are such an act. Why apologize for them? What are you actually apologizing for? Being unable to compensate for them?
- tim_chevalier 17y agoSorry, I call bullshit. Under some theories (not particularly more or less credible than yours), rape is an "evolutionary urge". As is sex between adult men and 13-year-olds, as are all kinds of violent acts. Part of being an adult human is to control your "evolutionary urges and drives" so you can live in a society. Would you accept "the estrogen made me do it" from a woman as an excuse for behaving incivilly?
- derefr 17y agoYes, I would "accept" that—as a theoretical explanation. However, as a pure-determinist, I would also accept that people would be offended be her incivility, as their social mores would tell them to be in response. Likewise, rape is an evolutionary urge—but so is the urge to punish people for it, or prevent people from doing it. To simplify: there is no need to apologize for your urge to punch someone you don't like in the face. There is no need for them to apologize for defending themselves, or calling the police. Both make subjective sense. Apologies are for when you were wrong given your own perspective.
- tim_chevalier 17y agoSo if somebody raped your mother, it would make you happier if they felt no remorse than if they said they were sorry about what they'd done?
- sethg 17y agoI don't know what the law is in other states, but in Massachusetts, if the car in front of you stops suddenly and you rear-end it, you are considered 100% at fault. (Unless you can prove that the other car stopped with the intent to cause an accident. Good luck with that.)
- teilo 17y agoAnyone who is oogling should apologize. I make no excuse for those who refuse to reign in their male urges or who are obnoxious or creepy. What I don't apologize for is having the urge in the first place. As another commentor well said, you may as well apologize for a force of nature.
- jrockway 17y agoWhat exactly does "a woman who dresses provocatively" distract you from? I can see how it might be enjoyable, but I'm not sure how that would prevent you from doing work. I also don't see why you can't keep those thoughts to yourself, just like you don't make fun of "a provocatively stupid guy" to their face. On the other side of the coin, if you work closely with 10 other people of the opposite sex, it confuses me as to why you wouldn't think one of those people would be attracted to you. Who else would they be attracted to?
- derefr 17y agoIt's not an active distraction: there is a certain type of woman (a minority, but a very vocal one) that will get pissed off when a man's visual autonomic systems examine them differently than they examine men. A man's eyes are doing something passive that he's completely unaware of; this woman is actively watching the man's eyes to see where he's looking in order to decide whether to be offended by his "distractedness."
- jrockway 17y agoI guess the next logical question is "who cares if they are offended". People get offended when they find out that I am an atheist. It's their problem, though, not mine.
- enneff 17y agoI can (and do) certainly keep my thoughts to myself, but I will sometimes find myself distracted by being aroused by a woman's appearance in the office building where I work. Being horny is not condusive to a productive work day.
- sethg 17y agoHow do you define "provocatively"? If a woman has large breasts, how would you have her dress (especially in hot weather) that you would not consider "provocative"?