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In Safari, there's no visual indication that the content is horizontally scrollable. That's a problem. In Firefox, there's a big scroll bar. This scroll bar co

In Safari, there's no visual indication that the content is horizontally scrollable. That's a problem. In Firefox, there's a big scroll bar. This scroll bar consumes more visual space than the content it scrolls. That's an absurdity. Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads. You nicely illustrated a problem, but your proposed solution makes no sense on modern computers with dedicated scrolling gestures.

bhauer 13y ago
> Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads I think there's disagreement about that here, which in a manner of speaking, is behind the mixed opinions expressed in this thread. I for one do not seek a browser without a scrollbar even though my mouse has a scroll-wheel. Making very large adjustments to my scroll position using the wheel is annoying: either I spin the wheel repetitively or I click the wheel and enter a scroll mode where the pointer's distance from a start point adjusts a velocity of scroll that continues until I click again. Both are much more fussy than just picking the scrollbar tack up and dragging it to the point I want to reach. I don't even like that in IE 10 (Metro) the scrollbar disappears on my Surface Pro with its touch screen. Luckily for me, IE 10 (desktop) retains the scrollbar.
- millstone 13y ago
  Good points. I should revise what I wrote to touch-enabled scrolling hardware. With a scroll wheel, both fine and gross movements are more difficult. The scroll wheel has a fixed set of positions, and is optimized for scrolling a line or two at a time. I also have never liked the modal "scroll mode" that you describe. With a magic mouse or scrolling trackpad, you get a much larger surface area available for scrolling, and there are more gradations. Inertia scrolling also makes it easy to scroll to the bottom or top of documents quickly: you can quickly "flick" to get to the bottom or top, which feels pretty natural. As a result, I find I interact with the scroll bar a lot less on my MacBook Air than I do on my scroll-wheel equipped desktop. I'm not sure what the situation is like on Windows though.
  - dirkgently 13y ago
    > I'm not sure what the situation is like on Windows though. Us poor Windows users have to hike few miles, find the cursor, lift and carry it on the back for a mile to get it to where we want it to, and then place it there. After all that, the page moves an inch.
TheZenPsycho 13y ago
I didn't propose a solution. I asked a question: Whose problem is it to solve? The user's? Apple's? HN's? Apple certainly took it upon themselves to cause the problem. What's your proposed solution?
- dan1234 13y ago
  Scrollbars are hidden by default if OSX detects a Magic mouse/trackpad but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing that to always shown (or always hidden!), as well as the scroll direction. Maybe the solution is a prompt for a decision the first time OSX starts up, at the same time as the user is creating their account?
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    add a prompt you say? do you think anyone actually reads prompts? or do they just dismiss them as quickly as possible, since they're in the way of the actual task?

bhauer 13y ago

> Scrollbars are a legacy UI element, a throwback to an era before scrolling mice and trackpads I think there's disagreement about that here, which in a manner of speaking, is behind the mixed opinions expressed in this thread. I for one do not seek a browser without a scrollbar even though my mouse has a scroll-wheel. Making very large adjustments to my scroll position using the wheel is annoying: either I spin the wheel repetitively or I click the wheel and enter a scroll mode where the pointer's distance from a start point adjusts a velocity of scroll that continues until I click again. Both are much more fussy than just picking the scrollbar tack up and dragging it to the point I want to reach. I don't even like that in IE 10 (Metro) the scrollbar disappears on my Surface Pro with its touch screen. Luckily for me, IE 10 (desktop) retains the scrollbar.

millstone 13y ago
Good points. I should revise what I wrote to touch-enabled scrolling hardware. With a scroll wheel, both fine and gross movements are more difficult. The scroll wheel has a fixed set of positions, and is optimized for scrolling a line or two at a time. I also have never liked the modal "scroll mode" that you describe. With a magic mouse or scrolling trackpad, you get a much larger surface area available for scrolling, and there are more gradations. Inertia scrolling also makes it easy to scroll to the bottom or top of documents quickly: you can quickly "flick" to get to the bottom or top, which feels pretty natural. As a result, I find I interact with the scroll bar a lot less on my MacBook Air than I do on my scroll-wheel equipped desktop. I'm not sure what the situation is like on Windows though.
- dirkgently 13y ago
  > I'm not sure what the situation is like on Windows though. Us poor Windows users have to hike few miles, find the cursor, lift and carry it on the back for a mile to get it to where we want it to, and then place it there. After all that, the page moves an inch.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago

I didn't propose a solution. I asked a question: Whose problem is it to solve? The user's? Apple's? HN's? Apple certainly took it upon themselves to cause the problem. What's your proposed solution?

dan1234 13y ago
Scrollbars are hidden by default if OSX detects a Magic mouse/trackpad but there's nothing stopping anyone from changing that to always shown (or always hidden!), as well as the scroll direction. Maybe the solution is a prompt for a decision the first time OSX starts up, at the same time as the user is creating their account?
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  add a prompt you say? do you think anyone actually reads prompts? or do they just dismiss them as quickly as possible, since they're in the way of the actual task?