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The "personal taste" argument comes up a lot in usability conversations. I find it to be incredibly weak. I might personally prefer to walk blindfolded across b

The "personal taste" argument comes up a lot in usability conversations. I find it to be incredibly weak. I might personally prefer to walk blindfolded across busy roadways. But that doesn't make it broadly easy or advisable. It's just simply a bad decision. There shouldn't be a preference, it should just be on by default, end of story. It only makes sense on iPads. The fact that it's auto-hide by default means that most mac owners will just simply have their machines set to auto-hide the scrollbar, and very likely have no idea that a setting exists- Then blame it all on the content owners for making a bad/hard to use site. (especially if they decide they want a scrollable pane with OS specific scrollbars on it) To expand a little bit, even something as seemingly arbitrary, like driving on the right or left side of the road, is not a matter of preference. If you pick the wrong one in a certain country, you can equally get yourself killed as with your other more obviously wrong "preferences". There is value in having everything work in a standard way.

supercoder 13y ago
This case is almost certainly preference. I prefer the indicators hidden, you prefer them on.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  You prefer your car headlights off at night. I prefer them on. Completely preference, right? You missed my point. Just invoking the word "preference" is a weak argument. You need something more like an actual argument. With evidence and logic.
  - sbuk 13y ago
    And reverting to reductio ad absurdum in an attempt to prove a logically weak position is better? Your closing works both ways. Your logic as far as I can see has basically been, to paraphrase; 'it annoys me'. All recent (less than 3 years) Apple devices are sold either as touch devices or with touch enabled peripherals. Gestural interaction is the default paradigm of interaction on iOS/OS X (this is also true of Android devices). These users are largely used to this behavior, which can be changed if there is a desire to do so. This behavior does not affect users of other systems that don't support gestural interaction. There is no need therefore to cater specifically for Apple (or other) users as they, through daily interaction with their device, will intuit what to do. It puzzles me why the scrollbar still exists as an interaction device elsewhere. I really had to think about where and how they appear because I am so used to them simply not being there. Perhaps you are looking at them in the wrong way. Where once the scrollbar was used for scrolling, it is now used to indicate the position the reader has reached on a page.
    - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
      The logic, my friend, is that the result of hiding the scrollbars, is this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6247596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6247596 though, if you are on a mac, I can understand if you missed that whole post.
      - sbuk 13y ago
        No, I read it easily; I simply used the trackpad to scroll. I disregarded it to because the premise is flawed, as has been pointed out to you. You don't have to agree with everyone else, but in real world use, with real world people, this is considerably less of an issue that you are making it to be. Watch a child use touch-based interface. It's enlightening. They intuit the required interaction with consummate ease. Having observed how individuals still use scroll bars by tapping on the arrows and not realising that it's quicker to grab the bar, to me illustrates that using and relying on scroll bars is as much a learned behaviour, and a less intuitive one at that.
x0054 13y ago
This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not having any scroll bars on is preference because the only one it effects is the user. I think a more important question is, what kind of design are you using that people can not instinctually figure out that they need to scroll? If your site needs to be scrolled horizontally (and its not painfully obvious that that's the case) it's a bad design. And if your user can not figure out that they need to scroll vertically, the are an idiot, or it's a truly bad design. In the former case, stop catering to the stupidest 5% of the population. Just like with people who use IE 7 in 2013, you'll never be able to properly serve them. And if its because of your design, redesign the damn site rather then pushing your preference onto the user.
- TheZenPsycho 13y ago
  I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism". In truth, as product designers we make all kinds of decisions on behalf of our users. We use a system of judgement to rank the "goodness" and the "badness" of those decisions based on whether they make our user's lives easier or harder. (or make us more or less money, depending on your ethos) In what way does hiding the scrollbar improve anyone's lives? In the cases where it demonstrably makes user's lives harder, explain why that doesn't matter?
  - x0054 13y ago
    Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)

supercoder 13y ago

This case is almost certainly preference. I prefer the indicators hidden, you prefer them on.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
You prefer your car headlights off at night. I prefer them on. Completely preference, right? You missed my point. Just invoking the word "preference" is a weak argument. You need something more like an actual argument. With evidence and logic.
- sbuk 13y ago
  And reverting to reductio ad absurdum in an attempt to prove a logically weak position is better? Your closing works both ways. Your logic as far as I can see has basically been, to paraphrase; 'it annoys me'. All recent (less than 3 years) Apple devices are sold either as touch devices or with touch enabled peripherals. Gestural interaction is the default paradigm of interaction on iOS/OS X (this is also true of Android devices). These users are largely used to this behavior, which can be changed if there is a desire to do so. This behavior does not affect users of other systems that don't support gestural interaction. There is no need therefore to cater specifically for Apple (or other) users as they, through daily interaction with their device, will intuit what to do. It puzzles me why the scrollbar still exists as an interaction device elsewhere. I really had to think about where and how they appear because I am so used to them simply not being there. Perhaps you are looking at them in the wrong way. Where once the scrollbar was used for scrolling, it is now used to indicate the position the reader has reached on a page.
  - TheZenPsycho 13y ago
    The logic, my friend, is that the result of hiding the scrollbars, is this https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6247596 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6247596 though, if you are on a mac, I can understand if you missed that whole post.
    - sbuk 13y ago
      No, I read it easily; I simply used the trackpad to scroll. I disregarded it to because the premise is flawed, as has been pointed out to you. You don't have to agree with everyone else, but in real world use, with real world people, this is considerably less of an issue that you are making it to be. Watch a child use touch-based interface. It's enlightening. They intuit the required interaction with consummate ease. Having observed how individuals still use scroll bars by tapping on the arrows and not realising that it's quicker to grab the bar, to me illustrates that using and relying on scroll bars is as much a learned behaviour, and a less intuitive one at that.

x0054 13y ago

This smacks of fascism, if I may be so blunt. It's preference as long as you do not hurt with your decisions any one else. Not turning your headlights on at night while driving on a public street is NOT a preference you can have, because it effects others. Not turning your headlights on while driving on your own exclusive and private drive way IS preference, as the only person you are likely to kill is your self. Not having any scroll bars on is preference because the only one it effects is the user. I think a more important question is, what kind of design are you using that people can not instinctually figure out that they need to scroll? If your site needs to be scrolled horizontally (and its not painfully obvious that that's the case) it's a bad design. And if your user can not figure out that they need to scroll vertically, the are an idiot, or it's a truly bad design. In the former case, stop catering to the stupidest 5% of the population. Just like with people who use IE 7 in 2013, you'll never be able to properly serve them. And if its because of your design, redesign the damn site rather then pushing your preference onto the user.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago
I'm sorry, what smacks of fascism? The choice, in this case, is Apple's, inflicted on all of its customers. If anything that is not obviously harmful can be reduced to mere "preference" then what is the point of hiring designers? just deliver raw html code and a textfield for users to write in their own css, right? Of course, I admit this is reducing the argument to absurdity, but so is calling my position "fascism". In truth, as product designers we make all kinds of decisions on behalf of our users. We use a system of judgement to rank the "goodness" and the "badness" of those decisions based on whether they make our user's lives easier or harder. (or make us more or less money, depending on your ethos) In what way does hiding the scrollbar improve anyone's lives? In the cases where it demonstrably makes user's lives harder, explain why that doesn't matter?
- x0054 13y ago
  Some people argue that Apple limits the users by not giving them enough options. You are of the opinion that Apple provides entirely too many user options. Not only should the users always have scroll bars on, but they also should not have the ability to turn them off. (correct me if I misunderstood)