13 ms·

Netherlands to close prisons for lack of criminals

45 points by soundsop 17y ago

gruseom 17y ago
I wonder why the crime rate is falling so pronouncedly there. I also wonder how (if at all) it's related to the ethnic/religious tensions surrounding the immigrant population. That's a subject we were hearing about for a while, but evidently it hasn't translated into much violence, at least not of the prison-filling type.
- anigbrowl 17y ago
  No real war on drugs, a very strong public service ethic (they have by far the most polite police I've encountered anywhere), and they have high expectations of themselves as a society. They are quite conformist but more in the sense of liking to be like each other, not punishment oriented towards people who are different. Anecdotal impressions of course, and superficial ones at that - I lived there for a few years but I'd need pages to write about them. If you ever have a chance to work/study/live there for a year, I'd say jump at the chance. It's not heaven on earth by any means, but Dutch people and society are worth getting to know.
  - gruseom 17y ago
    I admire the Dutch a whole lot too. But why would the crime rate be falling?
    - lucumo 17y ago
      Looking at the data published by the Dutch Statistics Bureau, it seems to me that the most pronounced drop is in the money crimes. They have been falling quite heavily since 2002 (after a jump up two years before). Violence seems to be steady for the past four years, while vandalism has been mostly growing for the past 15 years. (Using crimes committed per 100'000 people between ages 12 and 79.) For those that speak Dutch, the link to the table is: http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL&PA=37932&D1=0-1&D2=0,2-4&D3=0&D4=a&HD=090525-0327&HDR=G2,T,G1&STB=G3 http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL... On a semi-related note: I'm quite pleased that the Statistics Bureau's StatLine application now works in my browser. It's mostly HTML right now. It used to be mostly Java.
    - tokenadult 17y ago
      But why would the crime rate be falling? Demographic transition (fewer young people of the age most likely to commit crimes) might have a large enough effect size to account for that.
    - DenisM 17y ago
      Network effect works in reverse as well - if fewer people commit crimes you will be pressed to conform, and in turn will exert similar pressure on other potential hoodlums.
  - zackattack 17y ago
    It sounds like they live in a collectivist (as opposed to individualistic) society.
    - christofd 17y ago
      Actually the Dutch are much more open minded, individualistic then other continental European nations. This is reflected in their openness and willingness to engage in conversation etc. They seem to have an interesting blend between individualist and collectivist. The Germans e.g. are much more conform and shy (Dutch and German soccer teams play very different: Dutch allow for some action, while Germans play according to formations they've practiced). Before the U.S. economy took off in the 20th century, it was the UK and Netherlands which had the most dynamic and open market place. Further, the Netherlands were always a tolerant place for divergent political and religious views.
    - delano 17y ago
      The Netherlands has a very strong history of working together. It was the only way to solve the never ending floods. There was a good article from the NY Times posted a few weeks ago which provides a good summary of life in the Netherlands: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=595465 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=595465
    - MaysonL 17y ago
      If you like mystery novels, read Willem van de Wettering's series of police procedurals about a bunch of Amsterdam cops, and you'll come to a decidedly different conclusion. Also, Nicholas Freeling's van der Valk series, ditto.
      - gruseom 17y ago
        I read a couple of Freeling's novels recently, including one of the van der Valks. I kept wanting to like them better than I did; they were a bit too extraneously literary and too weak on plot for my taste. I'll have to give Wettering a try. Care to recommend one?
        17y ago
- j_baker 17y ago
  I do recall reading somewhere that the netherlands is the happiest country in the world (at least in terms of depression rates). I do also recall mention that the netherlands has a low income disparity. Whatever your stance on that subject is, it's true that less poverty = less crime.
  - ivankirigin 17y ago
    low income disparity != low poverty Poverty in the US is above the median wage in Portugal.
    - litewulf 17y ago
      (Is this accounting for cost of living?)
      - ivankirigin 17y ago
        Figures I've seen used purchasing power parity, so yes.
        qw 17y ago
        But does it take into account the cost of not having the same protection from a welfare system. Poor people in the US may have more money to spend, but what happens when they get sick, or need higher education?
    - lucumo 17y ago
      Depends on your definition of poor. Here in The Netherlands, poverty is defined as the lowest x% of income. (From what I hear, it's the same in the larger part of Europe, but I can't remember my sources...) That would make high income disparity almost synonymous with high poverty. And there is something to be said for it. If everybody in a country is making more, the price of living will be higher as well. If you're in the lower x%, you'll still have a hard time to pay for it.
      - 17y ago
- mattmcknight 17y ago
  This article has an interesting take on the immigrant population. http://www.nrc.nl/international/opinion/article2248923.ece/Going_Dutch_Not_So_Fast%21_ http://www.nrc.nl/international/opinion/article2248923.ece/G... With a minimum wage of about $20/hr it's difficult to break in at the low end of the labor market. [edit- appears this is an off base presumption]
  - lucumo 17y ago
    The 20 USD/h sounded like a bit much, so I did a check on that number. According to a site about wages by the largest Dutch union, the minimum wage for a 40 hour workweek is 1491.70 EUR/month. That comes down to about 8.61 EUR/h or (current FX on Yahoo) 12.06 USD/h. It may be higher if a union negotiated more for a certain sector, but in general, 12.06 USD/h is the minimum wage. It seems like Ms. Mees is exaggerating a bit to make her point. Another inaccuracy in her article surfaces when she refers to the polls that say that Wilders' party is currently leading. The polls she is referring to suffer from severe selection bias. People sign up to be part of the panel that gets polled. Since Wilders' supporters are mostly disgruntled with current political affairs, it seems very likely that they are overrepresented in those polls. I don't think she was aware of that though. These polls are done weekly and generally get some press (sad but true), mostly without any critical note (or any note at all) about the methodology (even sadder). [Wilders' may very well gain quite a following, but it's not evident from those polls.]
    - com 17y ago
      The number USD20/hour comes from the minimum cost to employer - remember that this is a society that has generous unemployment and health provisions: payroll duties, compulsory (employer-paid) social costs are fairly high, up to 100% of the gross salary for low-paid workers. And when you're not a low-paid worker - like me - the payroll duties etc are a very small part of what my employer pays, maybe 5% or so, but I pay more than 50% of my salary in income tax! So, in either case, the state and the social institutions get their cut. I personally like living somewhere where health care is a basic right for everyone (even if provision of it is a bit backward compared to somewhere like Spain or Australia - they're just discovering evidence-based medicine for example), people on the street are either foreigners and/or actively refuse help from the social services, and there's a generally strong tendency to solidarity despite recent trends towards an American-style consumerism and (not to be too blunt) selfishness.
- qw 17y ago
  Another interesting fact is the prison population rates per 100,000 of the national population. US has the highest rate in the world. US: 760 Netherlands: 100 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=northam&category=wb_poprate http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/wpb...
  - illumen 17y ago
    It's also interesting to compare the number of slaves in the USA before slavery became illegal, to the number of prisoners in the USA working for almost nothing. That's right... there's now more slaves in the USA than before it became illegal. Most prisons in the USA are run by private companies. They get paid by the states to hold the prisoners. Recently there were some judges convicted of sending innocent children to jail in exchange for financial payments from some of these private prisons. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=2&hp http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=2&h...
jrockway 17y ago
Clearly the prison lobby needs to have more things made illegal, like eating certain plants, or writing software to allow blind people to read e-books. They also need to make the sentences longer -- mandatory life in prison for everything. Finaly, they need to lower the minimum wage and cut government services, so more people are desperate enough to commit crimes. That will solve their problems... it worked for the US, anyway.
- discojesus 17y ago
  Finaly, they need to lower the minimum wage and cut government services, so more people are desperate enough to commit crimes. Or better yet institute an extremely high minimum wage, so that if you're an unskilled laborer you remain unemployed because walmart greeters' labor isn't worth $20 an hour just because the government said it is. After all, it's not like working 0 hours a week at $20 an hour would make someone as desperate as working 40 hours a week at $5 an hour...
  - maigret 17y ago
    Probably like that, you mean? http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=unemployment+us+netherlands http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=unemployment+us+nethe...
    - discojesus 17y ago
      I never said anything about the Netherlands' unemployment rate. I said that all else being equal, the country with the higher minimum wage will have higher unemployment, because there is a larger barrier to entry to the job market. But if you would care to explain how a business that takes in some amount of revenue (say $100,000 a month) can magically afford to hire more employees when the minimum wage goes from $7 an hour to $15 an hour, I'm all ears.
      - DenisM 17y ago
        This is easy. When all your competitiors have to pay higher wages it drives consumer prices up and so your revenue goes up as well such that you can also pay higher wages. It only breaks down when some stores do not abide by the rules or when there is a substitute. Substitutes of course can be hunted down and taxed as well, to maintian equilibrium. As a side not, kindly lay off sarcasm. Thanks.
TweedHeads 17y ago
"We don't need bigger jails, we need better schools"
weegee 17y ago
Feel really sorry for the employees of the prisons that are being shut. Fortunately there is no shortage of prisoners in the USA and there is real job growth potential in prison guard and other security related industry in the USA.
wlievens 17y ago
Actually they won't close their prisons, but lease them out to the Belgians.

45 points by soundsop 17y ago

I wonder why the crime rate is falling so pronouncedly there. I also wonder how (if at all) it's related to the ethnic/religious tensions surrounding the immigrant population. That's a subject we were hearing about for a while, but evidently it hasn't translated into much violence, at least not of the prison-filling type.

anigbrowl 17y ago
No real war on drugs, a very strong public service ethic (they have by far the most polite police I've encountered anywhere), and they have high expectations of themselves as a society. They are quite conformist but more in the sense of liking to be like each other, not punishment oriented towards people who are different. Anecdotal impressions of course, and superficial ones at that - I lived there for a few years but I'd need pages to write about them. If you ever have a chance to work/study/live there for a year, I'd say jump at the chance. It's not heaven on earth by any means, but Dutch people and society are worth getting to know.
- gruseom 17y ago
  I admire the Dutch a whole lot too. But why would the crime rate be falling?
  - lucumo 17y ago
    Looking at the data published by the Dutch Statistics Bureau, it seems to me that the most pronounced drop is in the money crimes. They have been falling quite heavily since 2002 (after a jump up two years before). Violence seems to be steady for the past four years, while vandalism has been mostly growing for the past 15 years. (Using crimes committed per 100'000 people between ages 12 and 79.) For those that speak Dutch, the link to the table is: http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL&PA=37932&D1=0-1&D2=0,2-4&D3=0&D4=a&HD=090525-0327&HDR=G2,T,G1&STB=G3 http://statline.cbs.nl/StatWeb/publication/?VW=T&DM=SLNL... On a semi-related note: I'm quite pleased that the Statistics Bureau's StatLine application now works in my browser. It's mostly HTML right now. It used to be mostly Java.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    But why would the crime rate be falling? Demographic transition (fewer young people of the age most likely to commit crimes) might have a large enough effect size to account for that.
  - DenisM 17y ago
    Network effect works in reverse as well - if fewer people commit crimes you will be pressed to conform, and in turn will exert similar pressure on other potential hoodlums.
- zackattack 17y ago
  It sounds like they live in a collectivist (as opposed to individualistic) society.
  - christofd 17y ago
    Actually the Dutch are much more open minded, individualistic then other continental European nations. This is reflected in their openness and willingness to engage in conversation etc. They seem to have an interesting blend between individualist and collectivist. The Germans e.g. are much more conform and shy (Dutch and German soccer teams play very different: Dutch allow for some action, while Germans play according to formations they've practiced). Before the U.S. economy took off in the 20th century, it was the UK and Netherlands which had the most dynamic and open market place. Further, the Netherlands were always a tolerant place for divergent political and religious views.
  - delano 17y ago
    The Netherlands has a very strong history of working together. It was the only way to solve the never ending floods. There was a good article from the NY Times posted a few weeks ago which provides a good summary of life in the Netherlands: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=595465 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=595465
  - MaysonL 17y ago
    If you like mystery novels, read Willem van de Wettering's series of police procedurals about a bunch of Amsterdam cops, and you'll come to a decidedly different conclusion. Also, Nicholas Freeling's van der Valk series, ditto.
    - gruseom 17y ago
      I read a couple of Freeling's novels recently, including one of the van der Valks. I kept wanting to like them better than I did; they were a bit too extraneously literary and too weak on plot for my taste. I'll have to give Wettering a try. Care to recommend one?
      - 17y ago
j_baker 17y ago
I do recall reading somewhere that the netherlands is the happiest country in the world (at least in terms of depression rates). I do also recall mention that the netherlands has a low income disparity. Whatever your stance on that subject is, it's true that less poverty = less crime.
- ivankirigin 17y ago
  low income disparity != low poverty Poverty in the US is above the median wage in Portugal.
  - litewulf 17y ago
    (Is this accounting for cost of living?)
    - ivankirigin 17y ago
      Figures I've seen used purchasing power parity, so yes.
      - qw 17y ago
        But does it take into account the cost of not having the same protection from a welfare system. Poor people in the US may have more money to spend, but what happens when they get sick, or need higher education?
  - lucumo 17y ago
    Depends on your definition of poor. Here in The Netherlands, poverty is defined as the lowest x% of income. (From what I hear, it's the same in the larger part of Europe, but I can't remember my sources...) That would make high income disparity almost synonymous with high poverty. And there is something to be said for it. If everybody in a country is making more, the price of living will be higher as well. If you're in the lower x%, you'll still have a hard time to pay for it.
    - 17y ago
mattmcknight 17y ago
This article has an interesting take on the immigrant population. http://www.nrc.nl/international/opinion/article2248923.ece/Going_Dutch_Not_So_Fast%21_ http://www.nrc.nl/international/opinion/article2248923.ece/G... With a minimum wage of about $20/hr it's difficult to break in at the low end of the labor market. [edit- appears this is an off base presumption]
- lucumo 17y ago
  The 20 USD/h sounded like a bit much, so I did a check on that number. According to a site about wages by the largest Dutch union, the minimum wage for a 40 hour workweek is 1491.70 EUR/month. That comes down to about 8.61 EUR/h or (current FX on Yahoo) 12.06 USD/h. It may be higher if a union negotiated more for a certain sector, but in general, 12.06 USD/h is the minimum wage. It seems like Ms. Mees is exaggerating a bit to make her point. Another inaccuracy in her article surfaces when she refers to the polls that say that Wilders' party is currently leading. The polls she is referring to suffer from severe selection bias. People sign up to be part of the panel that gets polled. Since Wilders' supporters are mostly disgruntled with current political affairs, it seems very likely that they are overrepresented in those polls. I don't think she was aware of that though. These polls are done weekly and generally get some press (sad but true), mostly without any critical note (or any note at all) about the methodology (even sadder). [Wilders' may very well gain quite a following, but it's not evident from those polls.]
  - com 17y ago
    The number USD20/hour comes from the minimum cost to employer - remember that this is a society that has generous unemployment and health provisions: payroll duties, compulsory (employer-paid) social costs are fairly high, up to 100% of the gross salary for low-paid workers. And when you're not a low-paid worker - like me - the payroll duties etc are a very small part of what my employer pays, maybe 5% or so, but I pay more than 50% of my salary in income tax! So, in either case, the state and the social institutions get their cut. I personally like living somewhere where health care is a basic right for everyone (even if provision of it is a bit backward compared to somewhere like Spain or Australia - they're just discovering evidence-based medicine for example), people on the street are either foreigners and/or actively refuse help from the social services, and there's a generally strong tendency to solidarity despite recent trends towards an American-style consumerism and (not to be too blunt) selfishness.
qw 17y ago
Another interesting fact is the prison population rates per 100,000 of the national population. US has the highest rate in the world. US: 760 Netherlands: 100 http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/wpb_stats.php?area=northam&category=wb_poprate http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/law/research/icps/worldbrief/wpb...
- illumen 17y ago
  It's also interesting to compare the number of slaves in the USA before slavery became illegal, to the number of prisoners in the USA working for almost nothing. That's right... there's now more slaves in the USA than before it became illegal. Most prisons in the USA are run by private companies. They get paid by the states to hold the prisoners. Recently there were some judges convicted of sending innocent children to jail in exchange for financial payments from some of these private prisons. http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=2&hp http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/13/us/13judge.html?_r=2&h...

jrockway 17y ago

Clearly the prison lobby needs to have more things made illegal, like eating certain plants, or writing software to allow blind people to read e-books. They also need to make the sentences longer -- mandatory life in prison for everything. Finaly, they need to lower the minimum wage and cut government services, so more people are desperate enough to commit crimes. That will solve their problems... it worked for the US, anyway.

discojesus 17y ago
Finaly, they need to lower the minimum wage and cut government services, so more people are desperate enough to commit crimes. Or better yet institute an extremely high minimum wage, so that if you're an unskilled laborer you remain unemployed because walmart greeters' labor isn't worth $20 an hour just because the government said it is. After all, it's not like working 0 hours a week at $20 an hour would make someone as desperate as working 40 hours a week at $5 an hour...
- maigret 17y ago
  Probably like that, you mean? http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=unemployment+us+netherlands http://www37.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=unemployment+us+nethe...
  - discojesus 17y ago
    I never said anything about the Netherlands' unemployment rate. I said that all else being equal, the country with the higher minimum wage will have higher unemployment, because there is a larger barrier to entry to the job market. But if you would care to explain how a business that takes in some amount of revenue (say $100,000 a month) can magically afford to hire more employees when the minimum wage goes from $7 an hour to $15 an hour, I'm all ears.
    - DenisM 17y ago
      This is easy. When all your competitiors have to pay higher wages it drives consumer prices up and so your revenue goes up as well such that you can also pay higher wages. It only breaks down when some stores do not abide by the rules or when there is a substitute. Substitutes of course can be hunted down and taxed as well, to maintian equilibrium. As a side not, kindly lay off sarcasm. Thanks.

TweedHeads 17y ago

"We don't need bigger jails, we need better schools"

weegee 17y ago

Feel really sorry for the employees of the prisons that are being shut. Fortunately there is no shortage of prisoners in the USA and there is real job growth potential in prison guard and other security related industry in the USA.

wlievens 17y ago

Actually they won't close their prisons, but lease them out to the Belgians.