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You're getting better at this "This isn't America's worst; look at history" argument. I can tell it's been used on Hacker News quite a bit before :)

mpyne 13y ago
And yet it's not an "argument" so much as the cold, solid truth. There is like a 23-page DoJ PDF about the legal theory behind the NSA programs being discussed, an ongoing conversation at the POTUS level, an introductory guide by the NSA themselves into how some of those systems are meant to work, and much more. If this is a police state, it's not a police state that I've ever read about in my history books. You think Putin is patiently explaining to all of his Russian citizens (and Snowden) the exact niceties of why their suveillance systems are needed to fight Chechnya-based Islamism, and patiently debating with parliamentarians in the Duma? Even The Guardian notes how they preferred the U.S. to the U.K. to work their stories. Only in America would this type of thing even possibly be a debate the way it is.
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  Maybe I was unclear; I completely agree with rayiner (and, by extension, you). I've even made the same exact arguments elsewhere, today even. I meant that it's an argument in that an argument can be either true or false. But yes, you're right.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Ah, sorry. I did misunderstand, and felt I had to speak up accordingly. Some of my highest-voted posts on HN have been the ones where I've had to patiently remind people that America now is leaps and bounds better than America in almost any other decade by almost any conceivable measure. Not every measure, for sure. But the history of America is one of constant (if slow) overall improvement; why throw that away? But now I'm preaching to the choir...
    - dylangs1030 13y ago
      If it's any consolation, comments like those from 'rayiner and yourself prompted me to do an in-depth study of United States history from a quality-of-life perspective, and eventually led me to make the same arguments, so they are working, don't be disheartened :)

mpyne 13y ago

And yet it's not an "argument" so much as the cold, solid truth. There is like a 23-page DoJ PDF about the legal theory behind the NSA programs being discussed, an ongoing conversation at the POTUS level, an introductory guide by the NSA themselves into how some of those systems are meant to work, and much more. If this is a police state, it's not a police state that I've ever read about in my history books. You think Putin is patiently explaining to all of his Russian citizens (and Snowden) the exact niceties of why their suveillance systems are needed to fight Chechnya-based Islamism, and patiently debating with parliamentarians in the Duma? Even The Guardian notes how they preferred the U.S. to the U.K. to work their stories. Only in America would this type of thing even possibly be a debate the way it is.

dylangs1030 13y ago
Maybe I was unclear; I completely agree with rayiner (and, by extension, you). I've even made the same exact arguments elsewhere, today even. I meant that it's an argument in that an argument can be either true or false. But yes, you're right.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Ah, sorry. I did misunderstand, and felt I had to speak up accordingly. Some of my highest-voted posts on HN have been the ones where I've had to patiently remind people that America now is leaps and bounds better than America in almost any other decade by almost any conceivable measure. Not every measure, for sure. But the history of America is one of constant (if slow) overall improvement; why throw that away? But now I'm preaching to the choir...
  - dylangs1030 13y ago
    If it's any consolation, comments like those from 'rayiner and yourself prompted me to do an in-depth study of United States history from a quality-of-life perspective, and eventually led me to make the same arguments, so they are working, don't be disheartened :)