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> Many people today do not even give pause over the idea that the government claims huge amounts of unchecked power, whether it is to fight terrorists or to exp

> Many people today do not even give pause over the idea that the government claims huge amounts of unchecked power, whether it is to fight terrorists or to expand social programs These are vastly different issues. Providing social programs doesn't infringe on anyone's rights except by taxation, which the government is constitutionally entitled to perform to any degree it wants. In contrast, the tactics employed to supposedly fight terrorism often impact rights which are protected by law.

guelo 13y ago
Yea, it's really annoying how libertarians always conflate the government's abuse of military and police powers with its role in moderating the excesses of capitalism. As a lefty political activist it makes it hard to form alliances on issues that we agree on.
- inferno0069 13y ago
  When they, or you, consider the latter issue to be greater than the former and don't form that alliance, you end up with the current situation.
crusso 13y ago
These are vastly different issues The funny thing is that they aren't. They're all about power. Power given to the few to control the many. Social programs just have that sugary coating that voters like to swallow, but the rotten corruption of power is at the center of all and its effects inevitably dominate.
- brianpgordon 13y ago
  That's the opposite of what's happening. Money (power) is flowing from the few (the rich) to the many (the poor who actually use government services and social programs).
  - crusso 13y ago
    Bam! ... and there you demonstrated exactly how they fool you. You're thinking about the social programs themselves - the bait or the distraction. I'm talking about governmental power: the power to control vast amounts of money, the power to reward your friends and relatives, the power to snoop on your innocent citizens and punish your enemies through the force of law and perhaps physical violence. They offer you trinkets, you vote for them, they gain power, they spend money they don't have, they abuse their power, they live like kings, they blame others for their eternal failures to implement utopia, they claim that if only you would elect them again and give them more of the money of the evil rich, they could solve all of society's problems... wash, rinse, repeat.
    - brianpgordon 13y ago
      "Doing good things is how they get you! They get re-elected by doing good things, and that gives them the voter support to do bad things. Down with good things!"
      - crusso 13y ago
        Promising good things is not equal to "good things". Doing a few good things is really easy when you have shitloads of other peoples' money to work with - but even then, they fail over and over to deliver what they actually promise. Detroit's city managers promised and did a whole lot of good things, didn't they? They were a regular Santa Claus with the handouts.
  - hyperventilator 13y ago
    Having more people on the government dole actually makes the problem worse. We need less government, as little as possible, and more self reliance. Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient be rid of it.
    - BrandonMarc 13y ago
      This, this, this! If you give a person / family just enough money to live off of, in exchange for their promise not to productively contribute and achieve (with the pride, joy, and happiness that can go with that) ... you have effectively turned them into slaves. A permanent welfare mentality = mental slavery. And tell me: are the people who are being "helped" happy, in the end? Do they live in peace? Travel their neighborhoods, talk to them in person, and you'll see the answer yourself. Yet sadly, they're convinced if they can vote for a little more money, and vote to take it away from certain others, then they'll be happy. The system does little to truly help them. That's why it's disgusting.

guelo 13y ago

Yea, it's really annoying how libertarians always conflate the government's abuse of military and police powers with its role in moderating the excesses of capitalism. As a lefty political activist it makes it hard to form alliances on issues that we agree on.

inferno0069 13y ago
When they, or you, consider the latter issue to be greater than the former and don't form that alliance, you end up with the current situation.

crusso 13y ago

These are vastly different issues The funny thing is that they aren't. They're all about power. Power given to the few to control the many. Social programs just have that sugary coating that voters like to swallow, but the rotten corruption of power is at the center of all and its effects inevitably dominate.

brianpgordon 13y ago
That's the opposite of what's happening. Money (power) is flowing from the few (the rich) to the many (the poor who actually use government services and social programs).
- crusso 13y ago
  Bam! ... and there you demonstrated exactly how they fool you. You're thinking about the social programs themselves - the bait or the distraction. I'm talking about governmental power: the power to control vast amounts of money, the power to reward your friends and relatives, the power to snoop on your innocent citizens and punish your enemies through the force of law and perhaps physical violence. They offer you trinkets, you vote for them, they gain power, they spend money they don't have, they abuse their power, they live like kings, they blame others for their eternal failures to implement utopia, they claim that if only you would elect them again and give them more of the money of the evil rich, they could solve all of society's problems... wash, rinse, repeat.
  - brianpgordon 13y ago
    "Doing good things is how they get you! They get re-elected by doing good things, and that gives them the voter support to do bad things. Down with good things!"
    - crusso 13y ago
      Promising good things is not equal to "good things". Doing a few good things is really easy when you have shitloads of other peoples' money to work with - but even then, they fail over and over to deliver what they actually promise. Detroit's city managers promised and did a whole lot of good things, didn't they? They were a regular Santa Claus with the handouts.
- hyperventilator 13y ago
  Having more people on the government dole actually makes the problem worse. We need less government, as little as possible, and more self reliance. Charity is injurious unless it helps the recipient be rid of it.
  - BrandonMarc 13y ago
    This, this, this! If you give a person / family just enough money to live off of, in exchange for their promise not to productively contribute and achieve (with the pride, joy, and happiness that can go with that) ... you have effectively turned them into slaves. A permanent welfare mentality = mental slavery. And tell me: are the people who are being "helped" happy, in the end? Do they live in peace? Travel their neighborhoods, talk to them in person, and you'll see the answer yourself. Yet sadly, they're convinced if they can vote for a little more money, and vote to take it away from certain others, then they'll be happy. The system does little to truly help them. That's why it's disgusting.