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Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly ov

Comments like "We are 100% completely corrupt", "Every single thing that the US stood for has literally been murdered", and "America is dead" are so absurdly over the top that they undercut your message and turn off people who might otherwise be receptive to your comments.

samstave 13y ago
While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anything they want in any situation. Legality is a tool to oppress the have-nots. So, take my upvote for calling me out on being emotional - but also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in.
- efuquen 13y ago
  Reality check, the NSA, Bush and increasingly Obama, the whole US Government and it's justice system, etc. don't represent the American ideal. But with a few exceptions I would wager that I would rather live here then almost any other country in the world. What is "American" comes from you and what you viewpoint is of that ideal. For me what constitutes as American has much more to do with my relationships with people here, who I meet, where I live, then anything stupid the NSA or government does. I think overall what's kind of silly about this is you're taking something that realistically is extremely abstract to the vast majority of people (how many of use are dealing with Snowden's problems on a personal level here?) and applying it to a whole country and it's people. Don't get me wrong, I think people should be angry with what's been happening, the eroding of the American dream, increased inequality, the continued militarization of the police and it's overall unaccountability, lack of privacy from both the government and businesses (let's not forget what type of data the Google's and Facebook's of the world legally have on you). It's going to take indignation and anger to result in the action that might change things. But, to turn around and say some thing like "America is dead"? No, personally I see things that make me proud of my fellow Americans, the goals they're accomplishing, the big dreams they have, the relationships they develop and grow from. I see those things happening on this forum everyday. No, to me America is around and kicking all around, the proof is right here in front of you, and it's worth fighting for. I'm not willing to write it off just yet.
  - just_a_drive_by 13y ago
    So it's not bad enough yet? I have watched everything the progressive left has warned America about for the last twenty five years come true and at every turn I have heard the same thing, "You are overreacting." Media Consolidation, NAFTA, GATT, WTO, Glass Steagall, etc. The issue that Groklaw broaches specifically is one that has major consequences. Change in America comes from upstarts, individuals who put their fear aside and try new things. Things that often throw a wrench into the works of established economic interests. What is now being made clear is that any plans you make might just find their way into the hands of your disruptee. PJ makes clear that she is scared, and to you it may not be rational, but that's not the point. She was willing to put herself at the front of a machine that regularly goes toe to toe with powerful entities. But now she is not and how many others will not even try in this current environment? I am surrounded by young people and the prevailing attitude is that the game is rigged, why even try? I've watched progressives grow older and walk away as soon as they realized that they had something to lose and that their opponents are vindictive. When that fear sinks in, it is over. No one does anything except the privileged who can't fail.
- rayiner 13y ago
  You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does not mean that the rule of law has ceased to have force. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but America has always been deeply imperfect. You talk about the "last 13 years" but you know nothing about the history of America if you think it was better 30 or 50 years ago. But the arc of history has been that America has gotten less imperfect over time. We find NSLs and the resort to esoteric legal defenses on the part of the NSA intolerable today, but those are niceties in the grand scheme of things. Remember, we're a country where Bureau of Prohibition agents ransacked peoples' physical property looking for alcohol in the 1930's, a country that put Japanese-Americans in internment in the 1940's, a country where the President had to call the national guard down to Alabama to get the governor to comply with a federal court order. You think that reading through Facebook posts or asking the British government to detain someone in an airport for 9 hours is what marks the end of America? That's hysteria. It should be noted that the surveillance programs seem pretty designed to stay on the right side of existing Supreme Court precedent. That's pretty much the opposite of the government doing "literally anything" it wants. That doesn't mean what its doing is right, but trying to skirt through holes in the law is very different from ignoring the law. And there was a time when the government didn't even bother with that pretense.
  - samstave 13y ago
    >It should be noted that the surveillance programs seem pretty designed to stay on the right side of existing Supreme Court precedent. I am pretty sure that what is slowly being revealed by Greenwald from Snowden's files is proving this to be false.
    - ENOTTY 13y ago
      Supreme Court ruled phone metadata is not entitled to Fourth Amendment protection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland
- smtddr 13y ago
  So, I understand where you're coming from. At this point it feels like we should all just pick up our guns, go to the whitehouse and let them really know how we feel. But, there's still hope without that extreme. US History has shown other, more hopeless, situations eventually being fixed. In pretty much all the cases, it took awakening the masses for the change to come about. As powerful as the NSA & USgov seem to be, one thing can destroy it all - awakening the public. Also, the NSA/USgov is playing on our home-turf. Technology & internet is not something they hold an advantage above us on. One slip up on their part, or one good idea on an activist's part, and the masses could wake up and the NSA would fall to pieces in the course of a month or 2. Don't give up, just keep talking about it to anyone who will listen. Keep on increasing the probability of another Snowden. My family doesn't really care or fallow this NSA-stuff, but they have heard of it and it decreased their trust in the government. That's good enough. Just keep decreasing trust in USgov; increase probability of "A wild Snowden suddenly appears!". Eventually, something dramatic will happen and this whole thing will reach a conclusion. I can't say what that conclusion will be though... but it'll happen, it'll be spectacular... and then we'll all know where we stand after the dust clears.
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in. I think your assessment of the world is significantly inaccurate.
  - samstave 13y ago
    I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously. Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.) It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 banking scandal? Try the SNL scandal of 80's)
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. Sure it has. Every last little thing. Now if you said that there always seems to be some scandal going on, then guess what, I agree with you. And guess what, that sort of shit has been going on since the founding of the Republic. And guess what, you can find shenanigans in the history of every monarchic, theocratic and republican government all the way back to ancient Rome and beyond. There is no Garden of Eden from which we've been expelled or Golden Age that we've lost, there's only your personal loss of innocence about how flawed humans are.
      - samstave 13y ago
        >Sure it has. Every last little thing. Pedantic. With respect to every major event, and every scandal; the position of the USG has invariably been proven to be false. Iran-Contra, S&L, Gulf War, Iraq War, 2008 banking scandal, NSA (no not wittingly). So - while you think I am an "outrage junkie" -- how about I actually have principals and fuck the USG and others who are unscrupulous assholes. Yeah - I am upset about what is going on, and it's funny because you're comments are of the opinion I should just "get over it and realize that humans suck". Sorry, that's not a position I'll take.
- smsm42 13y ago
  >>> The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". That's because you have been taught that legal is roughly equivalent to right which is roughly equivalent to moral. US culture is very legalistic. All warning signs say "Don't do this - it's the LAW!" - because once it's the law, it is absolute, that's where it ends. But I can bet nobody taught you - unless you're some rare exception - why things are or should be legal and where the "legal" comes from. US is unique in this regard as it was founded by people who actually thought about this question a lot - unlike most of other countries - and made a set of documents available - including, obviously, the Constitution, but also other works - that explain what they thought and why. But it is only a set of texts, each person has to find for himself/herself where their basic principles are and why the law must be such and not other. If the law has no basis under it, then what you feel is inevitable - since the law can be taken from you and perverted and made to say whatever people in power want it to say - and if you don't know what is beyond the law you have nothing left. You may not even be able to explain why what they are doing is wrong - after all, they have the law on their side, aren't they?
  - samstave 13y ago
    Thanks, I really liked your response. I fully understand why laws are put in place when they are done so in an empirical fashion e.g. for your safety, ensuring certain codes are followed that ensure structrual soundness of a building, etc. The problem is when we get people like Holder talking about how it is "legal" for the POTUS to use a drone to murder people in a foreign, supposedly, sovereign nation - even when those people are citizens of the US. This is where I get confused on the value of "legality". Insider trading by members of congress is "legal". Fraudulent foreclosure has been "legal" When what banks and governments do, while wrong, is called "legal" -- I cannot bring myself to respect anything they represent.
gradys 13y ago
I do agree with your point from the perspective that it will turn people off and marginalize the argument that bad things really are happening. At the same time, a place where 10% of communications are read by the government is not 90% free. The liberty of a place declines exponentially with the violations of that liberty.

samstave 13y ago

While I am sure you are correct, I can't help that this is how I actually feel. The entire concept of "America", for me, has completely dissolved. The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". All meaning from these terms has been removed. We live in an illusion. The actual reality we live in is a simple binary relationship: The haves. The have-nots. Those who have power (money) do literally anything they want in any situation. Legality is a tool to oppress the have-nots. So, take my upvote for calling me out on being emotional - but also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in.

efuquen 13y ago
Reality check, the NSA, Bush and increasingly Obama, the whole US Government and it's justice system, etc. don't represent the American ideal. But with a few exceptions I would wager that I would rather live here then almost any other country in the world. What is "American" comes from you and what you viewpoint is of that ideal. For me what constitutes as American has much more to do with my relationships with people here, who I meet, where I live, then anything stupid the NSA or government does. I think overall what's kind of silly about this is you're taking something that realistically is extremely abstract to the vast majority of people (how many of use are dealing with Snowden's problems on a personal level here?) and applying it to a whole country and it's people. Don't get me wrong, I think people should be angry with what's been happening, the eroding of the American dream, increased inequality, the continued militarization of the police and it's overall unaccountability, lack of privacy from both the government and businesses (let's not forget what type of data the Google's and Facebook's of the world legally have on you). It's going to take indignation and anger to result in the action that might change things. But, to turn around and say some thing like "America is dead"? No, personally I see things that make me proud of my fellow Americans, the goals they're accomplishing, the big dreams they have, the relationships they develop and grow from. I see those things happening on this forum everyday. No, to me America is around and kicking all around, the proof is right here in front of you, and it's worth fighting for. I'm not willing to write it off just yet.
- just_a_drive_by 13y ago
  So it's not bad enough yet? I have watched everything the progressive left has warned America about for the last twenty five years come true and at every turn I have heard the same thing, "You are overreacting." Media Consolidation, NAFTA, GATT, WTO, Glass Steagall, etc. The issue that Groklaw broaches specifically is one that has major consequences. Change in America comes from upstarts, individuals who put their fear aside and try new things. Things that often throw a wrench into the works of established economic interests. What is now being made clear is that any plans you make might just find their way into the hands of your disruptee. PJ makes clear that she is scared, and to you it may not be rational, but that's not the point. She was willing to put herself at the front of a machine that regularly goes toe to toe with powerful entities. But now she is not and how many others will not even try in this current environment? I am surrounded by young people and the prevailing attitude is that the game is rigged, why even try? I've watched progressives grow older and walk away as soon as they realized that they had something to lose and that their opponents are vindictive. When that fear sinks in, it is over. No one does anything except the privileged who can't fail.
rayiner 13y ago
You're succumbing to slippery slope hysteria. Probably your whole life, the government has overstepped the boundaries of the 4th amendment when it came to poor black people. But I bet if I told you a few years ago about that, you wouldn't have said it made "the entire concept of America" dissolve for you. And rightfully so. The fact that some people in the government do some things you think should be illegal, does not mean that the rule of law has ceased to have force. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but America has always been deeply imperfect. You talk about the "last 13 years" but you know nothing about the history of America if you think it was better 30 or 50 years ago. But the arc of history has been that America has gotten less imperfect over time. We find NSLs and the resort to esoteric legal defenses on the part of the NSA intolerable today, but those are niceties in the grand scheme of things. Remember, we're a country where Bureau of Prohibition agents ransacked peoples' physical property looking for alcohol in the 1930's, a country that put Japanese-Americans in internment in the 1940's, a country where the President had to call the national guard down to Alabama to get the governor to comply with a federal court order. You think that reading through Facebook posts or asking the British government to detain someone in an airport for 9 hours is what marks the end of America? That's hysteria. It should be noted that the surveillance programs seem pretty designed to stay on the right side of existing Supreme Court precedent. That's pretty much the opposite of the government doing "literally anything" it wants. That doesn't mean what its doing is right, but trying to skirt through holes in the law is very different from ignoring the law. And there was a time when the government didn't even bother with that pretense.
- samstave 13y ago
  >It should be noted that the surveillance programs seem pretty designed to stay on the right side of existing Supreme Court precedent. I am pretty sure that what is slowly being revealed by Greenwald from Snowden's files is proving this to be false.
  - ENOTTY 13y ago
    Supreme Court ruled phone metadata is not entitled to Fourth Amendment protection. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_v._Maryland
smtddr 13y ago
So, I understand where you're coming from. At this point it feels like we should all just pick up our guns, go to the whitehouse and let them really know how we feel. But, there's still hope without that extreme. US History has shown other, more hopeless, situations eventually being fixed. In pretty much all the cases, it took awakening the masses for the change to come about. As powerful as the NSA & USgov seem to be, one thing can destroy it all - awakening the public. Also, the NSA/USgov is playing on our home-turf. Technology & internet is not something they hold an advantage above us on. One slip up on their part, or one good idea on an activist's part, and the masses could wake up and the NSA would fall to pieces in the course of a month or 2. Don't give up, just keep talking about it to anyone who will listen. Keep on increasing the probability of another Snowden. My family doesn't really care or fallow this NSA-stuff, but they have heard of it and it decreased their trust in the government. That's good enough. Just keep decreasing trust in USgov; increase probability of "A wild Snowden suddenly appears!". Eventually, something dramatic will happen and this whole thing will reach a conclusion. I can't say what that conclusion will be though... but it'll happen, it'll be spectacular... and then we'll all know where we stand after the dust clears.
anigbrowl 13y ago
also know that I am actually having difficulty with the reality of the world we live in. I think your assessment of the world is significantly inaccurate.
- samstave 13y ago
  I'd LOVE to have my view changed. Would you care to provide your assessment of the world? Seriously. Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. (I first became politically aware when I watched everything related to Iran-Contra with my father.) It has been nothing but rinse-and-repeat of the same shit since that time. (2008 banking scandal? Try the SNL scandal of 80's)
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    Every single thing that the USG has said since I have been paying attention - starting in 1986 - every single thing has been a lie. Sure it has. Every last little thing. Now if you said that there always seems to be some scandal going on, then guess what, I agree with you. And guess what, that sort of shit has been going on since the founding of the Republic. And guess what, you can find shenanigans in the history of every monarchic, theocratic and republican government all the way back to ancient Rome and beyond. There is no Garden of Eden from which we've been expelled or Golden Age that we've lost, there's only your personal loss of innocence about how flawed humans are.
    - samstave 13y ago
      >Sure it has. Every last little thing. Pedantic. With respect to every major event, and every scandal; the position of the USG has invariably been proven to be false. Iran-Contra, S&L, Gulf War, Iraq War, 2008 banking scandal, NSA (no not wittingly). So - while you think I am an "outrage junkie" -- how about I actually have principals and fuck the USG and others who are unscrupulous assholes. Yeah - I am upset about what is going on, and it's funny because you're comments are of the opinion I should just "get over it and realize that humans suck". Sorry, that's not a position I'll take.
smsm42 13y ago
>>> The sad part is I now even have difficulty with the term "legal". That's because you have been taught that legal is roughly equivalent to right which is roughly equivalent to moral. US culture is very legalistic. All warning signs say "Don't do this - it's the LAW!" - because once it's the law, it is absolute, that's where it ends. But I can bet nobody taught you - unless you're some rare exception - why things are or should be legal and where the "legal" comes from. US is unique in this regard as it was founded by people who actually thought about this question a lot - unlike most of other countries - and made a set of documents available - including, obviously, the Constitution, but also other works - that explain what they thought and why. But it is only a set of texts, each person has to find for himself/herself where their basic principles are and why the law must be such and not other. If the law has no basis under it, then what you feel is inevitable - since the law can be taken from you and perverted and made to say whatever people in power want it to say - and if you don't know what is beyond the law you have nothing left. You may not even be able to explain why what they are doing is wrong - after all, they have the law on their side, aren't they?
- samstave 13y ago
  Thanks, I really liked your response. I fully understand why laws are put in place when they are done so in an empirical fashion e.g. for your safety, ensuring certain codes are followed that ensure structrual soundness of a building, etc. The problem is when we get people like Holder talking about how it is "legal" for the POTUS to use a drone to murder people in a foreign, supposedly, sovereign nation - even when those people are citizens of the US. This is where I get confused on the value of "legality". Insider trading by members of congress is "legal". Fraudulent foreclosure has been "legal" When what banks and governments do, while wrong, is called "legal" -- I cannot bring myself to respect anything they represent.

gradys 13y ago

I do agree with your point from the perspective that it will turn people off and marginalize the argument that bad things really are happening. At the same time, a place where 10% of communications are read by the government is not 90% free. The liberty of a place declines exponentially with the violations of that liberty.