6 ms·

Lets not try to code our way out of this. We succumb to terror pushing away meaningless bits of code on Github as a crypto projects in response. Some projects

Lets not try to code our way out of this. We succumb to terror pushing away meaningless bits of code on Github as a crypto projects in response. Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets. Giving you a salary for technician work keeping infrastructure ticking. Enough enabling the beastly mess that is privatized 'national' security. The payments to infrastructure providing companies for data access. The kidnapping/torture/drone fire of others when technological routes don't work. If you have a career with Dell, AT&T, Booz Allen Hamilton, SAIC, and many others, start making demands or make resumes. Stop being complicit.

igravious 13y ago
> Lets not try to code our way out of this. I disagree. Let's use all our skills and avenues, not just some of them. > We succumb to terror pushing away meaningless bits of code on Github as a crypto projects in response. That is a subjective opinion. Email itself is meaningless bits of code. You want us to stop using email altogether? What about the web? Why are you even posting on this forum so? > Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets. That is alarmist hyperbole. > Giving you a salary for technician work keeping infrastructure ticking. Enough enabling the beastly mess that is privatized 'national' security. The payments to infrastructure providing companies for data access. The kidnapping/torture/drone fire of others when technological routes don't work. If you have a career with Dell, AT&T, Booz Allen Hamilton, SAIC, and many others, start making demands or make resumes. Stop being complicit. Dell? A computer hardware device assembler? What on earth are you on about. You appear to think that the entire info-tech infrastructure, companies and "wage-slaves" alike are complicit in all this. Computers are a kind of tool, you can use them for beneficial, neutral or nefarious means. Let's keep the spotlight where it is needed -- on the secrest out-of-control governmental surveillance organs of various nation states. In short. Think a bit before you post and spare us the melodrama.
- Questioneer 13y ago
  > Dell? A computer hardware device assembler? What on earth are you on about. You appear to think that the entire info-tech infrastructure, companies and "wage-slaves" alike are complicit in all this. "Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell Inc in April 2012, almost a year earlier than previously reported, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the matter. David Frink, a spokesman for Round Rock, Texas-based Dell, declined to comment on any aspect of Snowden's employment with the company, saying Dell's "customer" - presumably the NSA - had asked Dell not to talk publicly about him.[1]" Thanks for the heaping pile of denigration. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowden-dell-idUSL2N0GF11220130815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowd...
  - igravious 13y ago
    That's a completely new one on me. I seem to stand corrected on the Dell issue (could someone expand on this?) -- but I still think you are casting your net a bit wide. I apologize for the heaping pile of denigration as you call it but maybe tone it down a bit and take the time to show (and link) in more detail why you are saying what you are saying, ok?
    - gregd 13y ago
      The time for toning it down has passed.
- Questioneer 13y ago
  "Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets." > That is alarmist hyperbole. Those were two direct references, the first being SAIC with their military drone[1] and domestic 'domain awareness center[2]' operations. The second being Endgame Systems and their monetization of botnet data/malware[3]. > Let's keep the spotlight where it is needed -- on the secrest out-of-control governmental surveillance organs of various nation states. On it with laser-like focus, sir. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/29/world/la-fg-drones-civilians-20111230 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/29/world/la-fg-drones-c... [2] http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center [3] http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems
derefr 13y ago
That's nice to say. Get angry, be outraged. But what do we do, day-to-day, while things are still a mess? How do you organize a revolution under the noses of the people you're revolting against? The code still has a purpose, even if it's not the "right" solution, long-term.
- arkitaip 13y ago
  It really comes down to lobbying lots and lots of politicians who can stop the NSA by significantly slashing its funding or by enforcing existing laws. The Occupy movement showed that revolutions don't work in a state where government and police will conspire against its citizens by infiltrating and undermining its civil rights movements.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    The problem with Occupy was that there was no demanded reforms, only complaints and protests against things. Protests aren't ever enough though. It is telling how little credibility Occupy had with Washington when Obama, giving his jobs speech during the protests, called for the deregulation of Wall St.
    - pdkl95 13y ago
      While Occupy DID make some demands; they were just made by the individual groups. It would be more correct, though, to say that "demands" weren't really the point of Occupy. They changed the national dialogue, and made a LOT of traditional euphamisms and arguments obsolete and useless by putting the core issue of class warfare back up in front where it belongs. "Cutting out decades of distraction an propaganda" may not have been an explicit "goal", but it was certainly a victory for the movement.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Revolution is not what you think. It consists of the small actions of millions of people. The small actions are usually more revolutionary than the large. The NSA has just created a huge market for guaranteed secure communications infrastructures. The technology is there. It may need some extensions but it is there. Some ideas (again no time for a startup now and this is too important): 1. An email-like service based on TOR with content encrypted via public key encryption end to end. 2. The second is an encrypted voice network. This can't encrypt metadata a swell in a way that central offices can't see it, but the contents could be encrypted easily enough. The code is a means to an end. We can't code our way out of the problem. We can build businesses that get us out and code is supportive of that.
madaxe 13y ago
> If you have a career with Dell, AT&T, Booz Allen Hamilton, SAIC, and many others, start making demands or make resumes. Stop being complicit. Unfortunately, the majority of wage-slaves are so indentured to their overlords that simply leaving is not an option, as the alternative is penury and starvation - particularly when you work for a giant like BAH, who'll ensure nobody will ever employ you again. If you want to make a stand, don't hand in your notice, don't make a resume, don't make demands, just don't show up, and let 'em flail. Worst they'll do is fire you, and in today's world you do not need to pledge fealty to an employer in order to survive, and the fewer people that do, the more rapidly things will change. If all the IT folks simply walked away from their machines, they would stop working, but we do not, and instead we strive to make their machines work perfectly without our intervention. Jump ship before they decide to push you overboard, anyway - because they will. If you think your employer respects you, and will give you a job for life... you are wilfully deceiving yourself.
- sz4kerto 13y ago
  Nobody on HN should say that she cannot stand up and walk away. We're have one the most sought-after and best paid jobs in the world. If we cannot give up some comfort, nobody is going to.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    Absolutely. I quit my well paid job for a bank in 2006, as the stink of corruption was too much for me - and quit by just walking out one day, and not coming back. 'lo and behold, banking scandal and collapse, not long later. Fuckers I'd been working for had been hiding $bns of bad debt by shunting it into a director's name every quarter. SEC nabbed 'em. I spent several years broke, getting my own outfit off the ground. Means I'll never work in that industry again. Good riddance.
- Questioneer 13y ago
  I 'Asked HN' earlier but received no reply from anyone. I would love to hear from anyone, mostly those listed on Bluecabinet on ProjectPM. The latter site started Barrett Brown, currently under prosecution by the US government[1]: Ask HN: Do you work for any of the included companies? (Dell/HBGary/AT&T/etc)[2] [1] http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-doj-is-suing-barrett-browns-intelligence-research-site http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-doj-is-suing-barrett-br... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240908
einhverfr 13y ago
Code won't do enough. You are right. What will help will be businesses in privacy-friendly countries which offer secure communications infrastructures. This can be guaranteed by careful development and placement of business assets and, yes, carefully designed code. Many of the people at these businesses you mention are wage slaves and they can't so easily just get up and leave. Code gives us tools. Such is a start, but only a start. We need solid, internationally federated businesses, which can be built to take on this challenge. Yes open sourcing the tools is important too, but only as a means to an end. We need to build up an infrastructure for actually using these tools and that means businesses offering services. I do not have time to do another business (I am ramping up two businesses right now). I do have time to consult, advocate, and advise on this very important topic.
kaoD 13y ago
Lets try to code our way out of this. Crypto sucks hard for beginners and it's pretty much in diapers.
tzs 13y ago
Why is Dell on that list?
- Questioneer 13y ago
  "Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell Inc in April 2012, almost a year earlier than previously reported, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the matter. ... David Frink, a spokesman for Round Rock, Texas-based Dell, declined to comment on any aspect of Snowden's employment with the company, saying Dell's "customer" - presumably the NSA - had asked Dell not to talk publicly about him.[1]" [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowden-dell-idUSL2N0GF11220130815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowd...
  - tzs 13y ago
    So basically Dell sells computers to the government?
    - mathiasben 13y ago
      They run their own version of AWS that's sold to the NSA.
      - tezzer 13y ago
        Also, they recently bought Perot Systems (remember H. Ross Perot?), a large government contractor with fingers in many pies.
jgg 13y ago
Hello, random new account advising us not to come up with electronic solutions to electronic government surveillance! >Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets. What in the fuck does this even mean? How is it relevant? The only problem with "fresh" crypto projects is that if you fuck it up, and you have bad crypto, it's as good as no crypto. Most of us here don't work for those companies, nor do most people being spied on, so this advice sucks. Legislation and regulation are the long-term methods of stopping this, but the short-term method of dealing with a technological problem is better technology.
- Questioneer 13y ago
  > What in the fuck does this even mean? How is it relevant? It means projects with sound footing are likely to be undermined aggressively by all means. Through courts, around courts, under courts. Undermined using infrastructure and resources provided by many potential contributor's day jobs. A bit like trying to build a castle on the weekend while getting paid to help knock it down during the weekdays. Wondering why it didn't amount to much some time later.
  - jgg 13y ago
    > It means projects with sound footing are likely to be undermined aggressively by all means. So we shouldn't even try?

igravious 13y ago

> Lets not try to code our way out of this. I disagree. Let's use all our skills and avenues, not just some of them. > We succumb to terror pushing away meaningless bits of code on Github as a crypto projects in response. That is a subjective opinion. Email itself is meaningless bits of code. You want us to stop using email altogether? What about the web? Why are you even posting on this forum so? > Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets. That is alarmist hyperbole. > Giving you a salary for technician work keeping infrastructure ticking. Enough enabling the beastly mess that is privatized 'national' security. The payments to infrastructure providing companies for data access. The kidnapping/torture/drone fire of others when technological routes don't work. If you have a career with Dell, AT&T, Booz Allen Hamilton, SAIC, and many others, start making demands or make resumes. Stop being complicit. Dell? A computer hardware device assembler? What on earth are you on about. You appear to think that the entire info-tech infrastructure, companies and "wage-slaves" alike are complicit in all this. Computers are a kind of tool, you can use them for beneficial, neutral or nefarious means. Let's keep the spotlight where it is needed -- on the secrest out-of-control governmental surveillance organs of various nation states. In short. Think a bit before you post and spare us the melodrama.

Questioneer 13y ago
> Dell? A computer hardware device assembler? What on earth are you on about. You appear to think that the entire info-tech infrastructure, companies and "wage-slaves" alike are complicit in all this. "Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell Inc in April 2012, almost a year earlier than previously reported, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the matter. David Frink, a spokesman for Round Rock, Texas-based Dell, declined to comment on any aspect of Snowden's employment with the company, saying Dell's "customer" - presumably the NSA - had asked Dell not to talk publicly about him.[1]" Thanks for the heaping pile of denigration. [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowden-dell-idUSL2N0GF11220130815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowd...
- igravious 13y ago
  That's a completely new one on me. I seem to stand corrected on the Dell issue (could someone expand on this?) -- but I still think you are casting your net a bit wide. I apologize for the heaping pile of denigration as you call it but maybe tone it down a bit and take the time to show (and link) in more detail why you are saying what you are saying, ok?
  - gregd 13y ago
    The time for toning it down has passed.
Questioneer 13y ago
"Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets." > That is alarmist hyperbole. Those were two direct references, the first being SAIC with their military drone[1] and domestic 'domain awareness center[2]' operations. The second being Endgame Systems and their monetization of botnet data/malware[3]. > Let's keep the spotlight where it is needed -- on the secrest out-of-control governmental surveillance organs of various nation states. On it with laser-like focus, sir. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/29/world/la-fg-drones-civilians-20111230 http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/29/world/la-fg-drones-c... [2] http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center http://oaklandwiki.org/Domain_Awareness_Center [3] http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems http://wiki.echelon2.org/wiki/Endgame_Systems

derefr 13y ago

That's nice to say. Get angry, be outraged. But what do we do, day-to-day, while things are still a mess? How do you organize a revolution under the noses of the people you're revolting against? The code still has a purpose, even if it's not the "right" solution, long-term.

arkitaip 13y ago
It really comes down to lobbying lots and lots of politicians who can stop the NSA by significantly slashing its funding or by enforcing existing laws. The Occupy movement showed that revolutions don't work in a state where government and police will conspire against its citizens by infiltrating and undermining its civil rights movements.
- einhverfr 13y ago
  The problem with Occupy was that there was no demanded reforms, only complaints and protests against things. Protests aren't ever enough though. It is telling how little credibility Occupy had with Washington when Obama, giving his jobs speech during the protests, called for the deregulation of Wall St.
  - pdkl95 13y ago
    While Occupy DID make some demands; they were just made by the individual groups. It would be more correct, though, to say that "demands" weren't really the point of Occupy. They changed the national dialogue, and made a LOT of traditional euphamisms and arguments obsolete and useless by putting the core issue of class warfare back up in front where it belongs. "Cutting out decades of distraction an propaganda" may not have been an explicit "goal", but it was certainly a victory for the movement.
einhverfr 13y ago
Revolution is not what you think. It consists of the small actions of millions of people. The small actions are usually more revolutionary than the large. The NSA has just created a huge market for guaranteed secure communications infrastructures. The technology is there. It may need some extensions but it is there. Some ideas (again no time for a startup now and this is too important): 1. An email-like service based on TOR with content encrypted via public key encryption end to end. 2. The second is an encrypted voice network. This can't encrypt metadata a swell in a way that central offices can't see it, but the contents could be encrypted easily enough. The code is a means to an end. We can't code our way out of the problem. We can build businesses that get us out and code is supportive of that.

madaxe 13y ago

> If you have a career with Dell, AT&T, Booz Allen Hamilton, SAIC, and many others, start making demands or make resumes. Stop being complicit. Unfortunately, the majority of wage-slaves are so indentured to their overlords that simply leaving is not an option, as the alternative is penury and starvation - particularly when you work for a giant like BAH, who'll ensure nobody will ever employ you again. If you want to make a stand, don't hand in your notice, don't make a resume, don't make demands, just don't show up, and let 'em flail. Worst they'll do is fire you, and in today's world you do not need to pledge fealty to an employer in order to survive, and the fewer people that do, the more rapidly things will change. If all the IT folks simply walked away from their machines, they would stop working, but we do not, and instead we strive to make their machines work perfectly without our intervention. Jump ship before they decide to push you overboard, anyway - because they will. If you think your employer respects you, and will give you a job for life... you are wilfully deceiving yourself.

sz4kerto 13y ago
Nobody on HN should say that she cannot stand up and walk away. We're have one the most sought-after and best paid jobs in the world. If we cannot give up some comfort, nobody is going to.
- madaxe 13y ago
  Absolutely. I quit my well paid job for a bank in 2006, as the stink of corruption was too much for me - and quit by just walking out one day, and not coming back. 'lo and behold, banking scandal and collapse, not long later. Fuckers I'd been working for had been hiding $bns of bad debt by shunting it into a director's name every quarter. SEC nabbed 'em. I spent several years broke, getting my own outfit off the ground. Means I'll never work in that industry again. Good riddance.
Questioneer 13y ago
I 'Asked HN' earlier but received no reply from anyone. I would love to hear from anyone, mostly those listed on Bluecabinet on ProjectPM. The latter site started Barrett Brown, currently under prosecution by the US government[1]: Ask HN: Do you work for any of the included companies? (Dell/HBGary/AT&T/etc)[2] [1] http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-doj-is-suing-barrett-browns-intelligence-research-site http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/the-doj-is-suing-barrett-br... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6240908

einhverfr 13y ago

Code won't do enough. You are right. What will help will be businesses in privacy-friendly countries which offer secure communications infrastructures. This can be guaranteed by careful development and placement of business assets and, yes, carefully designed code. Many of the people at these businesses you mention are wage slaves and they can't so easily just get up and leave. Code gives us tools. Such is a start, but only a start. We need solid, internationally federated businesses, which can be built to take on this challenge. Yes open sourcing the tools is important too, but only as a means to an end. We need to build up an infrastructure for actually using these tools and that means businesses offering services. I do not have time to do another business (I am ramping up two businesses right now). I do have time to consult, advocate, and advise on this very important topic.

kaoD 13y ago

Lets try to code our way out of this. Crypto sucks hard for beginners and it's pretty much in diapers.

tzs 13y ago

Why is Dell on that list?

Questioneer 13y ago
"Former intelligence contractor Edward Snowden began downloading documents describing the U.S. government's electronic spying programs while he was working for Dell Inc in April 2012, almost a year earlier than previously reported, according to U.S. officials and other sources familiar with the matter. ... David Frink, a spokesman for Round Rock, Texas-based Dell, declined to comment on any aspect of Snowden's employment with the company, saying Dell's "customer" - presumably the NSA - had asked Dell not to talk publicly about him.[1]" [1] http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowden-dell-idUSL2N0GF11220130815 http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/15/usa-security-snowd...
- tzs 13y ago
  So basically Dell sells computers to the government?
  - mathiasben 13y ago
    They run their own version of AWS that's sold to the NSA.
    - tezzer 13y ago
      Also, they recently bought Perot Systems (remember H. Ross Perot?), a large government contractor with fingers in many pies.

jgg 13y ago

Hello, random new account advising us not to come up with electronic solutions to electronic government surveillance! >Some projects flourish sure but the same forces that profit off the court-less killings of others are collating your data, your pet projects. Harvesting your stolen info out of botnets. What in the fuck does this even mean? How is it relevant? The only problem with "fresh" crypto projects is that if you fuck it up, and you have bad crypto, it's as good as no crypto. Most of us here don't work for those companies, nor do most people being spied on, so this advice sucks. Legislation and regulation are the long-term methods of stopping this, but the short-term method of dealing with a technological problem is better technology.

Questioneer 13y ago
> What in the fuck does this even mean? How is it relevant? It means projects with sound footing are likely to be undermined aggressively by all means. Through courts, around courts, under courts. Undermined using infrastructure and resources provided by many potential contributor's day jobs. A bit like trying to build a castle on the weekend while getting paid to help knock it down during the weekdays. Wondering why it didn't amount to much some time later.
- jgg 13y ago
  > It means projects with sound footing are likely to be undermined aggressively by all means. So we shouldn't even try?