5 ms·

Should I tell the founder his top employees are lazy and liars?

Hi, everyone. I know the title is blunt and the post is a little long. Please bear with me. 1. I'm an employee at a small agency (<10 of us). 2. I've been here almost a year. I've already seen a couple of raises and a promotion. I'm killing it and I sense my job is secure despite what I reveal to my employer. But who knows? 3. I discovered the most senior employee was charging a client for work that was never performed. 4. I let it go. I discovered this 6 months into the job and just wanted to play it safe. Nobody likes a snitch. 5. We ended up losing the client. I felt guilty for not speaking. 6. At almost a year in now, I've found that last month alone this individual is billing four clients for work that was also not performed. It makes me sick when I'm around this person. 7. I've recently discovered that the next most-senior employee is also charging three of their clients for work that is also not being completed. 8. In a recent private meeting with the founder, I informed him that I think people aren't doing their work. He said that was "distressing," sighed, and we continued discussing some other matters. He also said he'd like any other concerns brought to his attention whenever I felt I needed to raise them, his "door was always open," etc. I know he could sense I was wary about telling him anything too specific. I'm glad that he didn't push the matter at that time. This was about 3 weeks ago. I have another meeting with the founder later this week. What should I say?

traskjd 13y ago
Frankly, I'd be surprised if the founder in such a small business wasn't aware this was already going on. If he didn't then he's incompetent, if he does then he's as dodgy as the employees you reference. Integrity is one of the most valuable traits you can look for in people. Rather than worrying about the company so much, I'd be more concerned with yourself and how it reflects upon you being associated with this type of behaviour. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you for your well wishes. While not incompetent, I do believe he's neglected his responsibility to properly evaluate the performance of his employees more closely.
duncan_bayne 13y ago
3 - 5 ... sounds like you've worked out for yourself one reason that keeping quiet was wrong. What I'd do: - Give up any idea of continuing to work for that agency; you might come out of it smelling like roses, but you might get fired as well. Accept that acting ethically might cost you your job, and act on that assumption. Also, remember that being fired for acting ethically is, in the long run, an act of mercy: you don't want to be associated with crooks. - Put your complaint in writing, with details. Names, dates, amounts, clients, anything & everything you can remember. Give it to the founder, and explain that you'd like something done about it. - Repeat the previous step a few times. If nothing happens, tender your resignation. Again: do you want to work for crooks? - If resignation is necessary (or, if you're fired), then go to the clients and present them with the very same written complaint you presented to the founder. Be aware that being sued by the agency is a very real possibility should that happen.
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it.
  - jf22 13y ago
    In writing could bite you in the ass later. I wouldn't put those type of accusations in writing.
    - duncan_bayne 13y ago
      In writing will provide a paper trail that may later prove very handy. E.g. "oh yeah, that guy: I fired him for poor performance." How would you prove otherwise without a paper trail?
yowza 13y ago
No, because I might be that employee.
janeglendale 13y ago
You didn't mention much about the founder. Is he someone with a different background that just doesn't understand what's happening? Is he too busy with other things to see this? Does he actually think everything is going well, or does he just not know how to fix it? Or maybe he knows it's happening, but also knows money is tight?
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you for the questions! These are great. Unfortunately due to the, understandable, character limit of a post I cut out a handful of text which addressed a couple of these. The founder is fortunately technically versed enough that he should be capable of an audit of the work conducted by his employees. However, I think he's clueless to what's going on at the moment. He's an awesome guy and his heart is in the right place, but he's much more sales-oriented and concerned with bringing in business than he is with auditing the performance of his employees. Unfortunately. I believe he is indeed too busy with with other things to see this and I think he thinks everything is going well in terms of operations (despite my vague alert). That said, business was booming several months ago and he was not concerned at all about money then. These past couple months have been poor though.
  - nonchalance 13y ago
    Bringing in business is only part of the story. If you don't think that the founder is concerned with the fact that customers are leaving, then you don't have a competent person at the helm and you should jump ship. But give him another chance. Address the issues you noted, and see if he cares. If you think he's a good person, you probably can explain the importance of keeping good relations and making sure that customers are satisfied (and if he disagrees, you probably should leave)
    - throwawayagency 13y ago
      This is an important point, thank you. I actually received no followup from the founder. Despite these two senior employees heading the account I was working on, I was actually responsible for much of the work of the client's budget, yet despite this I was never approached regarding account performance. Thank you very much for reminding me about this fact.
kunil 13y ago
If he does not know already he is probably lazy or liar too.
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  I certainly don't think of him as lazy, but I think he's been too busy to realize what is going on, unfortunately. "Unaware" may be a better word, even though he should have been aware to begin with.
evan_ 13y ago
Tell the founder everything you know. Be honest and truthful, don't editorialize. Unless major changes happen quickly, you need to quit. Your salary is being paid with stolen money, and you cannot accept that.
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you for your response. (Though amusingly enough I am satisfying clients enough to bring in over 3x my salary. Makes me wonder if I should just freelance, haha...)
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    Yes! Freelancing is scary; but not as scary as being part of a legal proceeding, implicated in their crime.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
codeonfire 13y ago
The founder is clearly in on the overbilling. Your perception and judge of character is going to be biased and flawed. Bad people look and act just like normal people, probably even more so. I wouldn't say anything, just try to find a new job at a more ethical firm. you've got five new clients already lined up.
- jfoster 13y ago
  Taking the clients of your former employer would be unethical as well. Yes, they haven't done the right thing by their clients, but doubling the ethics deficit doesn't make everything right.
  - codeonfire 13y ago
    The two aren't in the same ballpark. Overbilling clients is stealing. Persuading clients to use your firm instead of someone else's is good business. There's agreements to protect trade secrets but those can't last for all eternity.
bjourne 13y ago
Either that or you're young, naive and a bad judge of character. The founder, whom you obviously look up to, is likely much older and more experienced than you. Of course he knows what is going on in his own company. The other guys didn't become senior employees by accident. Thinking otherwise is frankly stupid. Leave asap.
Chetane 13y ago
Assuming the founder is unaware of the situation (if he is, I would advice you to find another company), then he probably cares more that anyone else about the business succeeding. From that perspective, he will be very attentive to what you have to say, and thankful for you bringing it up. Now there are a few different ways to break the ice. I would start with something positive as most people don't like starting a discussion with conflicts. Maybe tell him about how you're excited about your work, because seeing clients happy and satisfied gives a sense of purpose and achievement, while strengthening the company brand. At the same time, you've noticed (and it pains you) that other projects are not being delivered, and causing clients to be lost, and the company looking bad. Share some evidence (a.k.a facts) that brought you to this conclusion, and if possible a way for his to double check. From there I'd play it by ear depending how the conversation is going. One thing to keep in mind however, is to see whether he knows already or not... if he does approve of such practices, then it's probably not a place you want to work at. Good luck :)
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Indeed, the fact that the founder can be so unaware is disturbing in itself and does encourage me at many moments to find another company. I will certainly bring evidence. The type of work not completed can still be audited by the founder. This indeed will be crucial in his realization of the issue. Thank you very much.
lifeisstillgood 13y ago
How exactly are you charging clients for work not done? Do they pay? How do you know they pay? How do you know they Re not getting rebates and apologies ? Over-billing hours is a serious crime but hardly unheard of. Claiming to have done deliverables is just foolish. Which is happening?
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you for your questions. All of the over-billing is coming from supposed ongoing work (and of course not a retainer situation). It doesn't happen in any initial phase where it would be difficult to fake something. The agency is small enough that we all have access to each other's client hours, invoice information, etc. and we often correspond directly with clients regarding their invoices, etc.
segmondy 13y ago
well, you should tell him, but don't just tell him for the sake of telling him. tell him from a business perspective so he can really understand. explain, how fixing this will save/make more money if not immediately in the future.
- throwawayagency 13y ago
  Thank you for this insight. Bringing up the problem as it relates to business goals is important.
davidsmith8900 13y ago
- I say that you should SUBLIMINALLY GIVE THE FOUNDER HINTS. DONT NAMEDROP. JUST GIVE HINTS and then mind your business.
jfoster 13y ago
It sounds to me as though the founder might know more about it than you think he does. I can't be sure, of course, but in his position wouldn't you react just a bit differently? He could have asked you for more details whilst being sensitive to the fact that you mightn't want to provide them yet.
viennacoder 13y ago
Tell the founder. If the culprits aren't immediately fired, then quit. If you stay it will damage your reputation.

traskjd 13y ago

Frankly, I'd be surprised if the founder in such a small business wasn't aware this was already going on. If he didn't then he's incompetent, if he does then he's as dodgy as the employees you reference. Integrity is one of the most valuable traits you can look for in people. Rather than worrying about the company so much, I'd be more concerned with yourself and how it reflects upon you being associated with this type of behaviour. Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you for your well wishes. While not incompetent, I do believe he's neglected his responsibility to properly evaluate the performance of his employees more closely.

duncan_bayne 13y ago

3 - 5 ... sounds like you've worked out for yourself one reason that keeping quiet was wrong. What I'd do: - Give up any idea of continuing to work for that agency; you might come out of it smelling like roses, but you might get fired as well. Accept that acting ethically might cost you your job, and act on that assumption. Also, remember that being fired for acting ethically is, in the long run, an act of mercy: you don't want to be associated with crooks. - Put your complaint in writing, with details. Names, dates, amounts, clients, anything & everything you can remember. Give it to the founder, and explain that you'd like something done about it. - Repeat the previous step a few times. If nothing happens, tender your resignation. Again: do you want to work for crooks? - If resignation is necessary (or, if you're fired), then go to the clients and present them with the very same written complaint you presented to the founder. Be aware that being sued by the agency is a very real possibility should that happen.

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it.
- jf22 13y ago
  In writing could bite you in the ass later. I wouldn't put those type of accusations in writing.
  - duncan_bayne 13y ago
    In writing will provide a paper trail that may later prove very handy. E.g. "oh yeah, that guy: I fired him for poor performance." How would you prove otherwise without a paper trail?

yowza 13y ago

No, because I might be that employee.

janeglendale 13y ago

You didn't mention much about the founder. Is he someone with a different background that just doesn't understand what's happening? Is he too busy with other things to see this? Does he actually think everything is going well, or does he just not know how to fix it? Or maybe he knows it's happening, but also knows money is tight?

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you for the questions! These are great. Unfortunately due to the, understandable, character limit of a post I cut out a handful of text which addressed a couple of these. The founder is fortunately technically versed enough that he should be capable of an audit of the work conducted by his employees. However, I think he's clueless to what's going on at the moment. He's an awesome guy and his heart is in the right place, but he's much more sales-oriented and concerned with bringing in business than he is with auditing the performance of his employees. Unfortunately. I believe he is indeed too busy with with other things to see this and I think he thinks everything is going well in terms of operations (despite my vague alert). That said, business was booming several months ago and he was not concerned at all about money then. These past couple months have been poor though.
- nonchalance 13y ago
  Bringing in business is only part of the story. If you don't think that the founder is concerned with the fact that customers are leaving, then you don't have a competent person at the helm and you should jump ship. But give him another chance. Address the issues you noted, and see if he cares. If you think he's a good person, you probably can explain the importance of keeping good relations and making sure that customers are satisfied (and if he disagrees, you probably should leave)
  - throwawayagency 13y ago
    This is an important point, thank you. I actually received no followup from the founder. Despite these two senior employees heading the account I was working on, I was actually responsible for much of the work of the client's budget, yet despite this I was never approached regarding account performance. Thank you very much for reminding me about this fact.

kunil 13y ago

If he does not know already he is probably lazy or liar too.

throwawayagency 13y ago
I certainly don't think of him as lazy, but I think he's been too busy to realize what is going on, unfortunately. "Unaware" may be a better word, even though he should have been aware to begin with.

evan_ 13y ago

Tell the founder everything you know. Be honest and truthful, don't editorialize. Unless major changes happen quickly, you need to quit. Your salary is being paid with stolen money, and you cannot accept that.

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you for your response. (Though amusingly enough I am satisfying clients enough to bring in over 3x my salary. Makes me wonder if I should just freelance, haha...)
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  Yes! Freelancing is scary; but not as scary as being part of a legal proceeding, implicated in their crime.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

codeonfire 13y ago

The founder is clearly in on the overbilling. Your perception and judge of character is going to be biased and flawed. Bad people look and act just like normal people, probably even more so. I wouldn't say anything, just try to find a new job at a more ethical firm. you've got five new clients already lined up.

jfoster 13y ago
Taking the clients of your former employer would be unethical as well. Yes, they haven't done the right thing by their clients, but doubling the ethics deficit doesn't make everything right.
- codeonfire 13y ago
  The two aren't in the same ballpark. Overbilling clients is stealing. Persuading clients to use your firm instead of someone else's is good business. There's agreements to protect trade secrets but those can't last for all eternity.

bjourne 13y ago

Either that or you're young, naive and a bad judge of character. The founder, whom you obviously look up to, is likely much older and more experienced than you. Of course he knows what is going on in his own company. The other guys didn't become senior employees by accident. Thinking otherwise is frankly stupid. Leave asap.

Chetane 13y ago

Assuming the founder is unaware of the situation (if he is, I would advice you to find another company), then he probably cares more that anyone else about the business succeeding. From that perspective, he will be very attentive to what you have to say, and thankful for you bringing it up. Now there are a few different ways to break the ice. I would start with something positive as most people don't like starting a discussion with conflicts. Maybe tell him about how you're excited about your work, because seeing clients happy and satisfied gives a sense of purpose and achievement, while strengthening the company brand. At the same time, you've noticed (and it pains you) that other projects are not being delivered, and causing clients to be lost, and the company looking bad. Share some evidence (a.k.a facts) that brought you to this conclusion, and if possible a way for his to double check. From there I'd play it by ear depending how the conversation is going. One thing to keep in mind however, is to see whether he knows already or not... if he does approve of such practices, then it's probably not a place you want to work at. Good luck :)

throwawayagency 13y ago
Indeed, the fact that the founder can be so unaware is disturbing in itself and does encourage me at many moments to find another company. I will certainly bring evidence. The type of work not completed can still be audited by the founder. This indeed will be crucial in his realization of the issue. Thank you very much.

lifeisstillgood 13y ago

How exactly are you charging clients for work not done? Do they pay? How do you know they pay? How do you know they Re not getting rebates and apologies ? Over-billing hours is a serious crime but hardly unheard of. Claiming to have done deliverables is just foolish. Which is happening?

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you for your questions. All of the over-billing is coming from supposed ongoing work (and of course not a retainer situation). It doesn't happen in any initial phase where it would be difficult to fake something. The agency is small enough that we all have access to each other's client hours, invoice information, etc. and we often correspond directly with clients regarding their invoices, etc.

segmondy 13y ago

well, you should tell him, but don't just tell him for the sake of telling him. tell him from a business perspective so he can really understand. explain, how fixing this will save/make more money if not immediately in the future.

throwawayagency 13y ago
Thank you for this insight. Bringing up the problem as it relates to business goals is important.

davidsmith8900 13y ago

- I say that you should SUBLIMINALLY GIVE THE FOUNDER HINTS. DONT NAMEDROP. JUST GIVE HINTS and then mind your business.

jfoster 13y ago

It sounds to me as though the founder might know more about it than you think he does. I can't be sure, of course, but in his position wouldn't you react just a bit differently? He could have asked you for more details whilst being sensitive to the fact that you mightn't want to provide them yet.

viennacoder 13y ago

Tell the founder. If the culprits aren't immediately fired, then quit. If you stay it will damage your reputation.