6 ms·

Hacker Scouts is served Cease and Desist letter from Boy Scouts of America

59 points by acgourley 13y ago

splendidfailure 13y ago
This doesn't seem to be unusual behavior for the BSA: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America&page=1 http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20...
robbiet480 13y ago
Boing Boing has an article. http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-scouts-change-y.html http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-scouts-change...
m0nastic 13y ago
I haven't been able to get the site to load, so I'm committing the venial Hacker News sin of commenting without reading the article, but I'm assuming this is somehow "trademark-related". I don't know what the branding of Hacker Scouts is, movies have always seemed able to skirt the BSA trademark issue by calling themselves things like "Wilderness Scouts", etc. So I'd imagine it would be hard for the BSA to claim ownership of the entire "scouting" landscape. I assume these people don't have access to the capital necessary to fight this in court, which is a shame. As an Eagle Scout who has been pretty unhappy with the conduct of the BSA since my teenage years, I would be very happy to see them lose a case like this (although that's easy for me to say, as I'm not on the hook financially for it).
- anigbrowl 13y ago
  With movies it's a little different. If I write a fictional story featuring the 'imagination scouts' I'm not really infringing on their mark because I'm mentioning a fictional organization with a similar name - I can't mention BSA because that might imply endorsement or participation by them, but it's OK to mention an organization of similar type. But if I'm running Hacker Scouts, now I'm actually competing with BSA for members to some degree, so if there's any danger of consumers being confused by the similarity of the marks then the obligation is on me to change it. Courts treat this 'consumer confusion' as key. As a third example, if I came up with a brand called 'Night Scouts,' but the brand was attached to a line of night-vision goggles rather than a membership organization, a court would (I hope) find a low probability of confusion between the two as long as the packaging for my product didn't use any graphics, slogans, iconography etc. that suggested a connection with BSA. BSA might claim that they had total ownership of anything involving the word 'scout' whatsoever, but a court would usually find that claim overbroad. However, that doesn't mean BSA would be wrong to make the claim. One peculiar things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is that courts take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility of infringement, then the trademark owner basically has to make a fuss about it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine case of infringement. So when you hear stories of trademark holders suing over very faint similarities, it's not that they really really want to shut everyone else down, but that they're going on the legal record as aggressively defending their mark against any possible infringer. If they failed to do so, someone else might point to their non-action as evidence that they had voluntarily abandoned the mark. Sort of perverse, but there you go.
  - eru 13y ago
    > One peculiar things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is that courts take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility of infringement, then the trademark owner basically has to make a fuss about it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine case of infringement. And that's not only US law. If memory serves right, e.g. German laws are similar.
    - anigbrowl 13y ago
      I forget the name but there's a fairly widely accepted international treaty about this, since trademarks are almost as old as trade itself.
- malandrew 13y ago
  As an Eagle Scout, write to the BSA and express your displeasure with these heavy handed tactics.
samstave 13y ago
BSA: Cease HS: No. Seriously - fark off BSA. You do not own the word "scouts". And frankly, if ANY court said they "legally" did - I would never accept such a statement. I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead.
- rbanffy 13y ago
  > I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead. Absolutely no. I use it a lot.
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  It's funny you mention that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6241241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6241241
Oculus 13y ago
What I don't understand is what's the purpose of doing this? From what it seems, Hacker Scouts are merely trying to do good. Why go out and fight that? I'm curious to hear BSA's side of the story and see if they're being shitty people or if there are real reasons to them doing this.
- driverdan 13y ago
  (IANAL) All corps fight to protect their trademarks, even when the 3rd party use is beneficial. If they don't rigorously defend them it could weaken the trademark and they could lose it in the future.
  - homosaur 13y ago
    See the Red Cross forcing id Software to change the red crosses on medpacks to pills. I mean who gives a shit, on any level? But some enforcement lawyer got a bug up their butt and they are paid to do this exact thing. One of the many reasons I don't donate to Red Cross, actually. Too much money on advertising and lawyers.
- bryans 13y ago
  I have to assume that even with the special privileges mentioned in tingletech's Wikipedia find, they are still required to actively use and protect the trademark, or otherwise be vulnerable to dilution. If they don't defend the trademark from everyone (regardless of whether the everyone has good intentions), they lose it. They don't really have much choice in the matter outside of documented legal action.
- phaus 13y ago
  But the Boy Scouts as an organization has a demonstrated history of being shitty people. They are actually quite proud of the fact that they are shitty people and go to great lengths to make sure everyone knows that they don't intend to stop being shitty people. They view their bigotry and ignorance as a badge of honor, and until they stop, I for one am not interested in anything they have to say. There can't be a logical explanation for trying to harm an organization that helps children unless they are intentionally trying to impersonate the BSA.
rbanffy 13y ago
I see lots of pedobears in their future...
tingletech 13y ago
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-scouts.org/blog/hacker-scouts-and-bsa&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-... Dear Hacker Scouts Family, For the past several months we have been dealing with an issue that we now feel is at a point where it is important to let you know what is going on. A few months ago, we received a Cease and Desist letter from the Boy Scouts of America when we tried to trademark our name. Through various letters, we have tried to quietly come to a compromise, but the BSA position is clear: change our name or they will take us to court. This is a difficult situation for us. We believe in our name and our right to use the word "scouts". The BSA's main argument is that they have a constitutional charter that they interpret to mean they have the right to use and trademark any word they choose. We disagree. We believe the charter itself may be unconstitutional, and that "scouts" is a world-wide connotation for a youth organization that existed before them and will exist long after them. We have also tried to be very clear in our message that we are not affiliated with the Boy Scouts nor are we trying to replace them. We do not offer the same experience, nor do we have a similar model as they do. We did not base our organization on them. Our board will be making a decision soon, based on advice from our lawyers and our own sense of duty. Our primary responsibility is to act in service of our mission and the kids we serve. We have been thinking a lot about our core values and what path models those values to the community we care so deeply about; moving on when it is necessary or standing up for what is right. Thinking about this situation in that context has been powerful and meaningful for us. We will let you know soon what the decision is, and how you can help. Thank you for your support and understanding. The Hacker Scouts Staff, Board, Leaders, and Mentors.
- tingletech 13y ago
  This is also interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally_chartered_corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally... The BSA holds a Congressional charter under Title 36 of the United States Code,[19] which means that it is one of the comparatively rare "Title 36" corporations in the United States.[20] The 1916 statute of incorporation established this institution amongst a small number of other patriotic and national organizations which are similarly chartered,[21] such as the Girl Scouts of the USA, the American Legion, the Red Cross, Little League Baseball, and the National Academy of Sciences. The federal incorporation was originally construed primarily as an honor, however it does grant the chartered organization some special privileges and rights, including freedom from antitrust and monopoly regulation, and complete control over the organization's symbols and insignia. As example, outside of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, no other youth organizations may use the term "scouts" or "scouting" in their name.
jevinskie 13y ago
Here is the relevant law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 I can't believe that they can claim "scout". After all, scouting is a global phenomena!
- kevinpet 13y ago
  It's contradicted by title 36 itself, which gives the same exclusive use of words the organization adopts to girl scouts.
peter-fogg 13y ago
What's that? The BSA is acting in a decidedly unfriendly way? No! I say this as an Eagle Scout, and someone who had a great time as a Boy Scout from around age ten to eighteen. The Scouts are a great organization on a local level, where there's little bureaucracy, and most decisions are made by or with the boys. You gain a good sense of responsibility when you're the one in charge of overseeing all the camping gear for your trip, or planning an outing over a weekend. There's also a lot to be said for the personal growth that comes from starting as a ten-year-old, learning from the older boys, and then realizing at age eighteen that you're one of those older boys who is looked up to by the young ones. However, the BSA at a national level is a pretty awful organization. They routinely discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. I'm an atheist myself, as were many in my troop. Again, at the local level this was fine -- nobody cares, provided the other members of the troop are sensible people (which, in my case, they were). But at the national level, any atheist is treated as a Godless Communist. The same goes for gay boys and leaders. The BSA takes the delightfully antiquated stance of equating homosexuality with pedophilia, with no shortage of moral indignation at the idea that people could feel affection for those of the same gender. Until they do a bit of soul-searching and come into the 21st century, I'll have nothing to do with the national level of the BSA.
- s-phi-nl 13y ago
  They recently changed their membership standards to not discriminate against homosexuals. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/results.aspx http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards...
  - tadfisher 13y ago
    Homosexual scouts. Homosexual and bisexual adults are still banned from the organization.
    - coldarchon 13y ago
      and I have NO PROBLEM with that. As much as I want religious indoctrinating people stay away from my kids, as much do I want overly sexual people stay away from my kids. Call me discriminating or "phobic" then you are a hypocrite.
jdnier 13y ago
I wonder if BSA has a similar problem with the Madison Scouts Drum & Bugle Corps, which has been around for 75 years? http://www.madisonscouts.org/ http://www.madisonscouts.org/
codezero 13y ago
Their site isn't responding for me right now, but does this org take donations? Is there any way people can help fight this?
- splendidfailure 13y ago
  It looks like they've added a PayPal donate button to the bottom right side of the page
wavesounds 13y ago
When I first saw hacker-scouts I immediately thought it had something to do with the BSA. Probably similar to how if you see something starting with a lower case i you associate it with Apple. Both organizations are based on their users trusting their brand so its not surprising they would both aggressive in defending that brand. Full disclosure: I'm an Eagle Scout
splendidfailure 13y ago
The site's back up!

59 points by acgourley 13y ago

This doesn't seem to be unusual behavior for the BSA: http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20America&page=1 http://ttabvue.uspto.gov/ttabvue/v?pnam=Boy%20Scouts%20of%20...

robbiet480 13y ago

Boing Boing has an article. http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-scouts-change-y.html http://boingboing.net/2013/08/19/bsa-to-hacker-scouts-change...

m0nastic 13y ago

I haven't been able to get the site to load, so I'm committing the venial Hacker News sin of commenting without reading the article, but I'm assuming this is somehow "trademark-related". I don't know what the branding of Hacker Scouts is, movies have always seemed able to skirt the BSA trademark issue by calling themselves things like "Wilderness Scouts", etc. So I'd imagine it would be hard for the BSA to claim ownership of the entire "scouting" landscape. I assume these people don't have access to the capital necessary to fight this in court, which is a shame. As an Eagle Scout who has been pretty unhappy with the conduct of the BSA since my teenage years, I would be very happy to see them lose a case like this (although that's easy for me to say, as I'm not on the hook financially for it).

anigbrowl 13y ago
With movies it's a little different. If I write a fictional story featuring the 'imagination scouts' I'm not really infringing on their mark because I'm mentioning a fictional organization with a similar name - I can't mention BSA because that might imply endorsement or participation by them, but it's OK to mention an organization of similar type. But if I'm running Hacker Scouts, now I'm actually competing with BSA for members to some degree, so if there's any danger of consumers being confused by the similarity of the marks then the obligation is on me to change it. Courts treat this 'consumer confusion' as key. As a third example, if I came up with a brand called 'Night Scouts,' but the brand was attached to a line of night-vision goggles rather than a membership organization, a court would (I hope) find a low probability of confusion between the two as long as the packaging for my product didn't use any graphics, slogans, iconography etc. that suggested a connection with BSA. BSA might claim that they had total ownership of anything involving the word 'scout' whatsoever, but a court would usually find that claim overbroad. However, that doesn't mean BSA would be wrong to make the claim. One peculiar things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is that courts take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility of infringement, then the trademark owner basically has to make a fuss about it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine case of infringement. So when you hear stories of trademark holders suing over very faint similarities, it's not that they really really want to shut everyone else down, but that they're going on the legal record as aggressively defending their mark against any possible infringer. If they failed to do so, someone else might point to their non-action as evidence that they had voluntarily abandoned the mark. Sort of perverse, but there you go.
- eru 13y ago
  > One peculiar things about trademarks (and quite different from copyright) is that courts take a 'defend it or lose it' view - so if there's a possibility of infringement, then the trademark owner basically has to make a fuss about it. If they don't, then later they may have trouble with halting a genuine case of infringement. And that's not only US law. If memory serves right, e.g. German laws are similar.
  - anigbrowl 13y ago
    I forget the name but there's a fairly widely accepted international treaty about this, since trademarks are almost as old as trade itself.
malandrew 13y ago
As an Eagle Scout, write to the BSA and express your displeasure with these heavy handed tactics.

samstave 13y ago

BSA: Cease HS: No. Seriously - fark off BSA. You do not own the word "scouts". And frankly, if ANY court said they "legally" did - I would never accept such a statement. I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead.

rbanffy 13y ago
> I'd offer BSA exclusivity over the word "Asshole" instead. Absolutely no. I use it a lot.
knowaveragejoe 13y ago
It's funny you mention that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6241241 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6241241

Oculus 13y ago

What I don't understand is what's the purpose of doing this? From what it seems, Hacker Scouts are merely trying to do good. Why go out and fight that? I'm curious to hear BSA's side of the story and see if they're being shitty people or if there are real reasons to them doing this.

driverdan 13y ago
(IANAL) All corps fight to protect their trademarks, even when the 3rd party use is beneficial. If they don't rigorously defend them it could weaken the trademark and they could lose it in the future.
- homosaur 13y ago
  See the Red Cross forcing id Software to change the red crosses on medpacks to pills. I mean who gives a shit, on any level? But some enforcement lawyer got a bug up their butt and they are paid to do this exact thing. One of the many reasons I don't donate to Red Cross, actually. Too much money on advertising and lawyers.
bryans 13y ago
I have to assume that even with the special privileges mentioned in tingletech's Wikipedia find, they are still required to actively use and protect the trademark, or otherwise be vulnerable to dilution. If they don't defend the trademark from everyone (regardless of whether the everyone has good intentions), they lose it. They don't really have much choice in the matter outside of documented legal action.
phaus 13y ago
But the Boy Scouts as an organization has a demonstrated history of being shitty people. They are actually quite proud of the fact that they are shitty people and go to great lengths to make sure everyone knows that they don't intend to stop being shitty people. They view their bigotry and ignorance as a badge of honor, and until they stop, I for one am not interested in anything they have to say. There can't be a logical explanation for trying to harm an organization that helps children unless they are intentionally trying to impersonate the BSA.

rbanffy 13y ago

I see lots of pedobears in their future...

tingletech 13y ago

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-scouts.org/blog/hacker-scouts-and-bsa&strip=1 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:hacker-... Dear Hacker Scouts Family, For the past several months we have been dealing with an issue that we now feel is at a point where it is important to let you know what is going on. A few months ago, we received a Cease and Desist letter from the Boy Scouts of America when we tried to trademark our name. Through various letters, we have tried to quietly come to a compromise, but the BSA position is clear: change our name or they will take us to court. This is a difficult situation for us. We believe in our name and our right to use the word "scouts". The BSA's main argument is that they have a constitutional charter that they interpret to mean they have the right to use and trademark any word they choose. We disagree. We believe the charter itself may be unconstitutional, and that "scouts" is a world-wide connotation for a youth organization that existed before them and will exist long after them. We have also tried to be very clear in our message that we are not affiliated with the Boy Scouts nor are we trying to replace them. We do not offer the same experience, nor do we have a similar model as they do. We did not base our organization on them. Our board will be making a decision soon, based on advice from our lawyers and our own sense of duty. Our primary responsibility is to act in service of our mission and the kids we serve. We have been thinking a lot about our core values and what path models those values to the community we care so deeply about; moving on when it is necessary or standing up for what is right. Thinking about this situation in that context has been powerful and meaningful for us. We will let you know soon what the decision is, and how you can help. Thank you for your support and understanding. The Hacker Scouts Staff, Board, Leaders, and Mentors.

tingletech 13y ago
This is also interesting: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally_chartered_corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America#Federally... The BSA holds a Congressional charter under Title 36 of the United States Code,[19] which means that it is one of the comparatively rare "Title 36" corporations in the United States.[20] The 1916 statute of incorporation established this institution amongst a small number of other patriotic and national organizations which are similarly chartered,[21] such as the Girl Scouts of the USA, the American Legion, the Red Cross, Little League Baseball, and the National Academy of Sciences. The federal incorporation was originally construed primarily as an honor, however it does grant the chartered organization some special privileges and rights, including freedom from antitrust and monopoly regulation, and complete control over the organization's symbols and insignia. As example, outside of the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts, no other youth organizations may use the term "scouts" or "scouting" in their name.

jevinskie 13y ago

Here is the relevant law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/30905 I can't believe that they can claim "scout". After all, scouting is a global phenomena!

kevinpet 13y ago
It's contradicted by title 36 itself, which gives the same exclusive use of words the organization adopts to girl scouts.

peter-fogg 13y ago

What's that? The BSA is acting in a decidedly unfriendly way? No! I say this as an Eagle Scout, and someone who had a great time as a Boy Scout from around age ten to eighteen. The Scouts are a great organization on a local level, where there's little bureaucracy, and most decisions are made by or with the boys. You gain a good sense of responsibility when you're the one in charge of overseeing all the camping gear for your trip, or planning an outing over a weekend. There's also a lot to be said for the personal growth that comes from starting as a ten-year-old, learning from the older boys, and then realizing at age eighteen that you're one of those older boys who is looked up to by the young ones. However, the BSA at a national level is a pretty awful organization. They routinely discriminate against atheists and homosexuals. I'm an atheist myself, as were many in my troop. Again, at the local level this was fine -- nobody cares, provided the other members of the troop are sensible people (which, in my case, they were). But at the national level, any atheist is treated as a Godless Communist. The same goes for gay boys and leaders. The BSA takes the delightfully antiquated stance of equating homosexuality with pedophilia, with no shortage of moral indignation at the idea that people could feel affection for those of the same gender. Until they do a bit of soul-searching and come into the 21st century, I'll have nothing to do with the national level of the BSA.

s-phi-nl 13y ago
They recently changed their membership standards to not discriminate against homosexuals. http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards/Resolution/results.aspx http://www.scouting.org/sitecore/content/MembershipStandards...
- tadfisher 13y ago
  Homosexual scouts. Homosexual and bisexual adults are still banned from the organization.
  - coldarchon 13y ago
    and I have NO PROBLEM with that. As much as I want religious indoctrinating people stay away from my kids, as much do I want overly sexual people stay away from my kids. Call me discriminating or "phobic" then you are a hypocrite.

jdnier 13y ago

I wonder if BSA has a similar problem with the Madison Scouts Drum & Bugle Corps, which has been around for 75 years? http://www.madisonscouts.org/ http://www.madisonscouts.org/

codezero 13y ago

Their site isn't responding for me right now, but does this org take donations? Is there any way people can help fight this?

splendidfailure 13y ago
It looks like they've added a PayPal donate button to the bottom right side of the page

wavesounds 13y ago

When I first saw hacker-scouts I immediately thought it had something to do with the BSA. Probably similar to how if you see something starting with a lower case i you associate it with Apple. Both organizations are based on their users trusting their brand so its not surprising they would both aggressive in defending that brand. Full disclosure: I'm an Eagle Scout

splendidfailure 13y ago

The site's back up!