3 ms·

At the fear of being labeled immature/unprofessional: i have found that in many cases i morally owe my employees reasons for their being let go. I have never ha

At the fear of being labeled immature/unprofessional: i have found that in many cases i morally owe my employees reasons for their being let go. I have never had to release an engineer on behavioral issues, so i always try to be clear with them about paths to improvement. i'm certain this varies across companies, but in the startups i have worked for i've build very close relationships to many of my coworkers. i like to think there is a mutual trust established in that relationship. Part of that trust includes me looking out for their best interests, which i feel includes explaining to them what their next steps are to further their careers after they depart.

cjensen 13y ago
It's always great if you can tell the employee what they need to do to improve. Do that while they still have a job. Work with them on it more than once. Just don't do that at firing time.
- HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
  Exactly. I wonder if some of these places have performance reviews. The first time you find out you're doing a crappy job should never be on the day you're fired!
robomartin 13y ago
The vast majority of the people I've had to fire have been salesmen who simply did not perform. At first I thought we should have a solid agreement with the sales person; one that laid down the expected metrics for the first 90 days and thereafter. My attorney insisted I understand that when you fire anyone in California you must --you must-- say nothing pertaining to the reasons for the firing. I made the mistake of behaving like a human being once and it cost me thousands.
- jtheory 13y ago
  Can you share more details of the story? I've been assuming this rule exists mostly to avoid the danger that you might accidentally phrase the reason for termination such that it could be treated as discriminatory... but this really sounds like the problem is deeper than that.
  - robomartin 13y ago
    Facts matter not when the Labor Department gets involved. I walked in with a legally-binding contract done by my attorney and singed by the guy I fired. He was required to sell a certain dollar amount in 90 days. He sold exactly zero. Zero. The Labor Department mediator made me pay him several thousand dollars in ADVANCE COMMISSION I withheld at the time of firing. In reality, per the agreement, he owed ME several thousand dollars or advance commission he, effectively, never earned because he sold nothing. It didn't matter. This happened because I told him I was letting him go because he did not sell anything. He (and the Labor Department folks, I'm sure) came up with some bullshit reason why I should pay him money anyway. Had I given no reason whatsoever it is likely that there would have been less grounds to even bring forward a case. I'm summarizing something that is a bit more complex than the above but the overall idea is very much there. Regrettably what you have to do is smile every day, take notes, document everything and, if the decision to fire is made, simply fire people without any explanation whatsoever. It goes something like this: "I'm sorry. I have to let you go. Here's your check." And walk them out immediately. Oh, yes, if you can you should really consider having a witness to the firing. I was laid off twice in my life and both times there were three people in the room. Years later I would understand the reasons behind something that seemed weird and almost demeaning to me at the time. I don't like having these kinds of relationships with people I work with but the legal framework in our state pretty much dictates you act this way for simple self preservation.
    - tehwebguy 13y ago
      What is advance commission? Was he paid a base?
      - robomartin 13y ago
        It's an amount of money paid above a base pay. This amount represents future commissions not yet earned by the sales person. This is done in order to provide a more stable paycheck during the initial "on-boarding" process as well as during lean times. Frankly, I never understood why sales professionals don't just work for a good wage and that's it. The very engineers who build the products earn a decent wage, work long hours, are continuously studying and sharpening their skills and devoted years of schooling to even be able to get the job. In my early exposure to sale folk I recoiled at the idea of paying someone commission because I felt that if one person got commissions then everyone involved in bringing the product to market was just as entitled to them. Of course, the problem is far more complicated than that and I quickly learned you simply could not hire a good sales person unless they saw some kind of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. That's just the way that side of the universe has devolved and that's it. One approach I have never tried is to have everyone on stock options. Pay the sales folks a good salary, not some crapy $30K/y base + commissions. The theory being that they are going to want to work just as hard to get the company to a level where their stock will make them a bundle of money. A lot of folks in sales are very mercenary in nature and end-up living from battle to battle, commission to commission. This sets-up a situation where it might actually be difficult to convince them to use a forward looking approach and forgo the usual deal in favor of stocks at some time in the future. My experience got me to the point where I determined it was a far better idea to identify someone with no sales experience and bring him/her up into sales from within the company. No bad habits, better connection to the business, actually thankful for bringing them up to a level where they could earn real money and a whole host of other benefits. Once I tried that approach and had good results I never hired another sales person from the "real world" again. Live and learn.

cjensen 13y ago

It's always great if you can tell the employee what they need to do to improve. Do that while they still have a job. Work with them on it more than once. Just don't do that at firing time.

HeyLaughingBoy 13y ago
Exactly. I wonder if some of these places have performance reviews. The first time you find out you're doing a crappy job should never be on the day you're fired!

robomartin 13y ago

The vast majority of the people I've had to fire have been salesmen who simply did not perform. At first I thought we should have a solid agreement with the sales person; one that laid down the expected metrics for the first 90 days and thereafter. My attorney insisted I understand that when you fire anyone in California you must --you must-- say nothing pertaining to the reasons for the firing. I made the mistake of behaving like a human being once and it cost me thousands.

jtheory 13y ago
Can you share more details of the story? I've been assuming this rule exists mostly to avoid the danger that you might accidentally phrase the reason for termination such that it could be treated as discriminatory... but this really sounds like the problem is deeper than that.
- robomartin 13y ago
  Facts matter not when the Labor Department gets involved. I walked in with a legally-binding contract done by my attorney and singed by the guy I fired. He was required to sell a certain dollar amount in 90 days. He sold exactly zero. Zero. The Labor Department mediator made me pay him several thousand dollars in ADVANCE COMMISSION I withheld at the time of firing. In reality, per the agreement, he owed ME several thousand dollars or advance commission he, effectively, never earned because he sold nothing. It didn't matter. This happened because I told him I was letting him go because he did not sell anything. He (and the Labor Department folks, I'm sure) came up with some bullshit reason why I should pay him money anyway. Had I given no reason whatsoever it is likely that there would have been less grounds to even bring forward a case. I'm summarizing something that is a bit more complex than the above but the overall idea is very much there. Regrettably what you have to do is smile every day, take notes, document everything and, if the decision to fire is made, simply fire people without any explanation whatsoever. It goes something like this: "I'm sorry. I have to let you go. Here's your check." And walk them out immediately. Oh, yes, if you can you should really consider having a witness to the firing. I was laid off twice in my life and both times there were three people in the room. Years later I would understand the reasons behind something that seemed weird and almost demeaning to me at the time. I don't like having these kinds of relationships with people I work with but the legal framework in our state pretty much dictates you act this way for simple self preservation.
  - tehwebguy 13y ago
    What is advance commission? Was he paid a base?
    - robomartin 13y ago
      It's an amount of money paid above a base pay. This amount represents future commissions not yet earned by the sales person. This is done in order to provide a more stable paycheck during the initial "on-boarding" process as well as during lean times. Frankly, I never understood why sales professionals don't just work for a good wage and that's it. The very engineers who build the products earn a decent wage, work long hours, are continuously studying and sharpening their skills and devoted years of schooling to even be able to get the job. In my early exposure to sale folk I recoiled at the idea of paying someone commission because I felt that if one person got commissions then everyone involved in bringing the product to market was just as entitled to them. Of course, the problem is far more complicated than that and I quickly learned you simply could not hire a good sales person unless they saw some kind of pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. That's just the way that side of the universe has devolved and that's it. One approach I have never tried is to have everyone on stock options. Pay the sales folks a good salary, not some crapy $30K/y base + commissions. The theory being that they are going to want to work just as hard to get the company to a level where their stock will make them a bundle of money. A lot of folks in sales are very mercenary in nature and end-up living from battle to battle, commission to commission. This sets-up a situation where it might actually be difficult to convince them to use a forward looking approach and forgo the usual deal in favor of stocks at some time in the future. My experience got me to the point where I determined it was a far better idea to identify someone with no sales experience and bring him/her up into sales from within the company. No bad habits, better connection to the business, actually thankful for bringing them up to a level where they could earn real money and a whole host of other benefits. Once I tried that approach and had good results I never hired another sales person from the "real world" again. Live and learn.