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Why I Was Fired From a Tech Startup and What My Boss Had to Say About It

129 points by jfarmer 13y ago

jusben1369 13y ago
I'm impressed his former boss sent him a note to state that he felt really bad about the way things happened. It would be nice if he'd done more initially but it still takes a lot of character to write that note and apologize vs just blow it off or chalk it up to the past.
- krainboltgreene 13y ago
  I disagree. There was nothing to lose by sending this and everything to gain. There was no character required to write an apology when you're no longer near the situation. I suspect he's just trying to rebuild burned bridges for better networking in SF (he just moved there).
dylangs1030 13y ago
If he had competing offers, he was in a good negotiating position. I can understand believing in a great company and drinking the kool-aid, but if you have competing offers and a company explicitly states, "Salary and equity are non-negotiable" - that's a huge red flag. You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. With very few exceptions, you don't want to put yourself in an environment where terms are dictated to you rather than opened on a floor with you for your input. Even if you fail miserably at the negotiation, at least you had an opportunity. Second to this - unless you're literally at-will employee, this is grounds for liability. The author was explicitly told, "You didn't do anything wrong, we're just getting rid of you because you don't fit." IANAL, so I won't harp on this as I don't know the particulars, but I'm fairly sure this is a case most lawyers wouldn't shy away from if everything is to be taken at face-value here (anyone with a law degree can correct me if I'm wrong). In any case...I'm glad the author received validation of his abilities, even if it was nearly a year later. Maybe his former boss will grow a backbone and rehire him for something awesome. At least he didn't burn a bridge.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >"Salary and equity are non-negotiable" ... >You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. that was the negotiation. The author took "being a part of that revolution" in lieu of money.
- greenyoda 13y ago
  "unless you're literally at-will employee, this is grounds for liability." "At-will" is pretty much the default in the U.S. Unless you're working under a union contract, or some other kind of contract that spells out a specific period of employment, you're probably at-will.
- WalterBright 13y ago
  > You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. You can always negotiate. You can also dictate your terms. Of course, the other party can refuse your terms, just as you can refuse their terms.
rocky1138 13y ago
The big question: did he end up getting coffee with his former boss?
- kintamanimatt 13y ago
  It seems he didn't because he feels his former boss is untrustworthy and lacking in character; someone who's ready and willing to be someone's unthinking paid henchman. > His ethics meant nothing as long as he was having a paycheck lorded over him. > We need to be employed. But at the cost of what? Our ethics? Our passions? Those that trust us? I had to do a lot of extrapolating to come to this conclusion. Given the circumstance I wouldn't meet this former boss either. I learned a long time ago that people who'll screw me over once will screw me over again.
- Apocryphon 13y ago
  My big question is how exactly the way he looked triggered his dismissal.
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    I'd have marched into the CEO's office and demanded an explanation. Looked him straight in the eye and make him justify his decision.
    - trustfundbaby 13y ago
      ... And probably get hauled off by security or even worse the Police?
      - walshemj 13y ago
        So make sure you accidentally fall down on the way out and counter sue for GBH
      - nknighthb 13y ago
        It would be unwise for security to physically "haul" you off unless you were being violent, and even if they call the police, they will simply tell you to leave and not come back. Cops won't touch or arrest you in this situation unless you refuse to comply. You may or may not get the answer you want, but there's not much they can do about you making the attempt.
beefxq 13y ago
"Anyone who is worth a shit has been fired at least once."
- nmcfarl 13y ago
  Interesting theory. But it seems to indicate that the best piss off those higher up in the corporate food chain, and do it repeated, without results, until they get fired. From my perspective, both tact (and associated political skills), and knowing when to cut your losses are awesome skills that many of the best have. However - I do agree that getting fired can be a badge of honor.
- driverdan 13y ago
  Nope. I know plenty of people who have significant worth to their companies/clients and never been fired.
  - smtddr 13y ago
    ... or never told you, or knew that they should quit before getting fired, or laid off(but the boss knows it was to get rid of him/her).
- ChristianMarks 13y ago
  There are certainly organizations for which this is true. How else would you know, at those places, whether someone was any good unless they were fired or badly mistreated?
  - beefxq 13y ago
    http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/01/06/getting-fired-from-microsoft/‎ http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/01/06/getting-fired-from-m... Typically, these people should run their own companies or consulting instead of working for other people.
- shubb 13y ago
  I know you meant 'Anyone who takes risks gets fired eventually. Great people take risks.' But I got fired from a burger place once because I wasn't much good at making burgers. They also say 'Judge a man by his enemies. A man with no enemies is no man at all'. But I suspect most people you'd want to work with don't have enemies at work.
mathattack 13y ago
Very tough story. What I don't get is why someone who is so good at sales (the story supports this) is on food stamps. If you can say, "I landed clients A, B and C" then a competitor would hire you to do it for them too, no?
- toyg 13y ago
  After an experience like this, somebody like him would probably swear never to put himself in that position again.
  - FDpod 13y ago
    Yes. Exactly (I'm the author). I never want to work in a cubicle again. Which is what the whole Full Disclosure thing is, trying to create my own business as to never deal with this or these types of people again.
    - mathattack 13y ago
      OP - If you can sell, you can sell yourself and your firm. Short term you'll have problems, but medium term you'll be ok and long term you'll do fine. Hang in there!
- peterjancelis 13y ago
  The counter-party risk for a sales guy is in seeing those commission checks coming in after you deliver the goods. Looks like his trust was violated and the new discounted expectations make him not apply for equivalent jobs anymore.
twigger 13y ago
Seems like it crashed, here's the cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.fdpod.com/why-i-was-fired-from-a-tech-startup-and-what-my-boss-had-to-say-about-it/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.fdp...
radicalbyte 13y ago
Nice story, but we're hearing only one side of it. Was the writer working running his "sex and comedy" blog at the same time as working for the company? I can imagine the CEO sacking him when he came across the guy's blog; what with the pictures of vibrators and skanky models.. The start-up's customers were looking for Software Developers: unless they were limiting themselves to the young/liberal Bay then this kinda thing will be damaging to their image.
- brianmcconnell 13y ago
  I can imagine 99% of customers never putting two and two together in the first place. I talk to salespeople all the time, and not once have I thought to inquire about their personal interests, side projects, etc.
  - PommeDeTerre 13y ago
    That may be true for you and the other 99% of customers. However, if that 1% of customers who do consider such things to matter are the most important of a given firm's customers, then their opinions on such issues can have an astronomical impact on the business.
    - soneca 13y ago
      An advise like "please put a hold on your side project or at least creat a different name to deal with that" would have solved the problem. Or at least would be transparent. Sure, we only listened to one side, but this sounds like creating absurd reasoning to try to justify what the company did.
      - blisterpeanuts 13y ago
        But once it's out there, it's connected to him -- in the cache, in people's memory, etc. Changing the name might help a bit, but then this is all speculation since he didn't find out whether his comedy work was a factor.
    - 13y ago
brianmcconnell 13y ago
Ah, the magic of "at will" employment. It's an excellent tool for those who rely on fear based management, and a horrible deal for employees. Based on my experience in the tech industry, I assume I am being lied to. Things have only gotten worse recently with all of the fast money sloshing around and the bad actors it has drawn in.
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  Yeah, it's to where if I get a whiff of dishonesty, I start submitting resumes. This is my third job since April and I've already started looking for the fourth. I used to think job-hopping would raise a red flag and keep me from getting hired, but it hasn't yet. I think if anything it signals value that you can find work at will.
  - mratzloff 13y ago
    It hasn't yet that you are aware of. I would immediately pass on your resume without a second glance. Four jobs in less than six months very strongly signals a number of negative things to prospective employers. Perhaps the only companies willing to hire you now are those with high developer turnover who just need a warm body to fill the last vacated seat? And perhaps you are perpetuating that?
    - vinceguidry 13y ago
      Hmm. The 3 jobs I've gone through were all very different. One was a very small software development company, they decided after three weeks that they wanted someone with a lot more experience. I went from there to a huge corporation, where I was unhappy so I found another job. This one I'm at now is a largish "small business", like 300 employees. I'd be confident in my ability to find another should these guys suddenly not want me. But they told me when they hired me that it wasn't even a competition, I was that much better than their other candidates. It was like that at BigCorp too. Another thing is that all three were contract-to-hire, except for BigCorp, which omitted the hire part. I had significant accomplishments at each of them, making and delivering entire apps. This is reflected in the resume. It's a different world out there. You really have to try people out before you can commit to them. Many times it just doesn't make sense to continue.
peter_l_downs 13y ago
> I was told that neither salary nor equity were negotiable, but I was sold on the promise of the company. Yo, fuck that. Everything is negotiable to one degree or another. That sounds like someone trying to take advantage of you.
- prawn 13y ago
  Well, you can negotiate to not take the job... I don't see why a company can't hold its ground on salary if it chooses to rule out anyone wishing to get a bit more.
- dustingetz 13y ago
  There was a negotiation and he lost
- rfnslyr 13y ago
  I've never understood that. Just taking a job because OH MY GOD JOB. I've been in on going salary negotiations for over two months, all while they paid me the highest contrator salary just to have me stay on. Straight up said "Pay me X or I walk, thanks". 5 second meeting. FUCK company/corporate loyalty. I'm here to get paid so I can fund an adventurous life, not to make you richer. I'm here to make myself richer and that's 100% all there is to it. Know your value, unless you're really in a bind. That was it.
  - redblacktree 13y ago
    I'd say in a healthy employee/employer relationship, you're both making each other richer.
    - coldtea 13y ago
      Nope -- you always make the boss richer.
      - redblacktree 13y ago
        Well, in the strictest sense, I'm getting richer by being employed. Of course, good money handling and living below my means are required for me to make progress. I think you mean to say that "my boss" is capturing more value from my work than I am, which is probably true, but that doesn't mean that we're not both benefiting. I look at it as a simple transaction; I give my time, he gives me money. I don't plan to keep this arrangement forever, but it's certainly making me richer right now.
PommeDeTerre 13y ago
Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, physical appearance can often have a big impact when dealing with certain clientele. Certain types of clients just prefer to deal with people who conform to what might be considered a more "conservative" appearance. Deviating from their expectations can reduce their level of trust, for instance, which can impact business dealings. This is especially true when dealing with customers from abroad, especially when there are other cultural differences at play. Some people have also had very, very bad experiences with other people who dress or groom themselves in a specific way. It's not the appearance itself that is harmful, but rather the association it has to other people who were directly involved with bad experiences in the past. An example of this are those Ruby on Rails developers who choose a so-called "hipster" appearance. It can only take one disastrous Ruby on Rails project for a client to consider all software developers who have such an appearance to be untrustworthy and unprofessional. Again, whether it's right or wrong, this can happen very easily. The specifics of this particular case aren't very clear. But I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate the importance or impact of physical appearance in general, when it comes to business dealings.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > Some people have also had very, very bad experiences with other people who dress or groom themselves in a specific way. I've had very, very bad experiences with people who dress in suits. Indeed, the people who have had the most severe negative effects on my life have invariably worn suits. And I can't name many people I've had positive experiences with who ever wear suits. Yet, somehow, I don't think that's what you had in mind when defending this nonsense.
  - pnathan 13y ago
    I think if we shook things around and looked at the PommeDeTerre's explanation another way, it'd come out like this: > People who are dressed in a suit represent the existing power structures; lots of people like said power structures; people with suits represent some sort of alignment with power structures and can resonate as an authority and conformer to the way things are. I want to clearly distance myself from this statement, but I recognize that it (or some variant of it) is adhered to by many people.
cjensen 13y ago
His boss fired him and told him why? Never do that. When firing someone in an at-will state, just do it and explain nothing. Explanations can easily lead to lawsuits. It's just not worth the risk.
- md224 13y ago
  Unrelated to the validity of this advice: it's kind of sad that our society has evolved legal structures that make it prohibitively risky to tell another human being why you're taking an action against them. Hmm... what if you could have an employee sign a release as a precondition of being told why they were fired?
  - cheald 13y ago
    Then you'd have them sign it before you fire them for a bullshit, actually-worthy-of-a-lawsuit reason.
    - Thrymr 13y ago
      In which case, the waiver may be invalid anyway, since there are rights that you cannot legally waive.
      - jacques_chester 13y ago
        A lot of waivers and disclaimers have no legal effect, but they deter people who don't know that. Bluffing is part of legal risk management.
  - shubb 13y ago
    I got a CV through the other day from a stranger. The guy had some great experience but the CV was weird. It was 10 pages long for 4 jobs. He listed every course he'd ever been sent on, including health and safety and diversity training ones, and just mixed his degree in somewhere with them. He listed each version of word he'd used (seemly every version released) with equal prominence as Java and SQL. Each time he'd been hired as a temp contractor he wrote his job title as CEO, because he was getting paid via his company. My boss laughed at it and told me to bin it. He needed to know what was wrong, or he'd stay unemployed (which was a shame for a guy with some great skills). I agonized for about a day and finally sent him some tips from my personal email, but I'm sure we could get sued if the strangeness was due to a disability. Something wrong there.
ececconi 13y ago
> Human Resources is not your advocate. Human Resources is a risk-assessment department. Powerful statement.
- freehunter 13y ago
  This is basically why unions were formed in the first place. HR is there to protect the company, and they are owned by the company. Unions are there to protect the employees, and they are owned by the employees. I know the current attitude is against unions, and there are probably a lot of anti-union people on HN, for good reasons. Unions realized their power and became corrupt, became money-hungry, became power-hungry. Unions were one hand in the pot that bankrupted Detroit. And that's a shame, because now employees have literally no one watching their backs. At-will employment and an employer-friendly environment creates a hostile work place where employees of many companies never know when or why they're going to be fired. Unions aren't entirely bad. Employers aren't entirely bad. It's just a shame we can't figure out a good balance of employer and employee protection.
  - mjn 13y ago
    I find my union in Denmark helpful. I think union systems operate quite differently in different countries, for a mixture of cultural, legal, and economic reasons. For me it's exactly as you indicate: HR represents the employer's interest, the union represents my interests, and the two negotiate mutually agreeable working conditions that represent a compromise between each side's wishlist.
  - mcv 13y ago
    Good unions are great. For employees, for the economy, and even for the employers. I don't understand how American unions got so crazy and self-destructive (or if they're not, why so many Americans are convinced the are).
    - rrouse 13y ago
      I'd say it's because of the same reason why some people vote against their own best interests (e.g. less taxes on the wealthy). They believe that one day, they will be rich and powerful, so they had better not vote in things that would affect them when they get there. The problem is, most of them never get there.
bdcravens 13y ago
My take was that once you strip away all the unicorn and ice cream BS, there's little magic that prevents a startup from being based on the same values that drive the largest companies. Bad leadership and greed tend to have the same result, whether in SF, Chicago, or St. Louis.
epoxyhockey 13y ago
One of the more frustrating things about working in the Bay Area is having to deal with finicky personalities like the OP's boss & CEO. It really takes a psychopath to court a potential hire so hard and then fire them 5 weeks later due to their appearance (after they sign a couple of large customers, btw). If this were NYC, I could understand stabbing someone in the back after they secure a couple of large customers. Though, in the Bay Area, it's like being stabbed in the back by a meth addict; sometimes it makes sense, most of the time it doesn't.
- brianmcconnell 13y ago
  I watched a CEO fire someone he had recruited cross country just weeks after he had relocated his family to the Bay Area. They screwed him and his family over real good. Not long afterward, the CEO fired his outside accountant and made his wife the CFO of the company. I straight up asked if he was hiding something, knowing that he probably was and that my stock and bonus were fictional. I was fired immediately afterward. I laughed gleefully on the drive home from the comically bad exit interview.
  - _delirium 13y ago
    There's a certain level of unethical behavior in termination that can lead to a successful termination lawsuit even in an at-will state like California. Outright bad-faith conduct still violates the implicit covenant of good faith and fair dealing, though it's a fairly high bar to be held in violation. Cases where it's been found in the past include terminating an employee in a way calculated to harm the employee maximally, due to a boss settling a personal vendetta and being intemperate enough to say so; and engaging in a pattern of firing people just before promised benefits vest, in which case the company can be found to have been falsely promising benefits it never intended to deliver. Hiring your wife as a CFA to cover up questionable dealings seems like it might be leaning in that direction...
- greenyoda 13y ago
  "If this were NYC, I could understand stabbing someone in the back after they secure a couple of large customers." Why would that make sense in NYC or anywhere else? If someone brought in some large customers, I'd expect them to be able to bring in more large customers in the future. Firing someone with that track record would just be stupid.
logicallee 13y ago
I have a very different take here. I will delete it if it doesn't resonate with others: Those who live by the sword die by it. He particularly liked "you're a great cultural fit." That means you are JUST LIKE THEM. We can't say, "same race" (but it's true), we can't say, "same gender" (but it's true), and we can't say, "same taste in technology, living address, clothes and what you do on your off time" (but it's true - to the point that side projects are a part of many CTO job descriptions). Well, those who live by the sword die by it. What I really like about this story is that it shows just how shallow "cultural fit" is. At my company, I have no idea what some of my C-level people look like. This will absolutely shock some of you. It also gives me access to talent at a multiple of talent to dollars that you cannot even dream of. Sure, we will never put an "About us" page up with a 'culturally fit' workforce. We might even just use models of 16 28-year-old men who look exctly the same (maybe off of a swim team), give them all glasses and a Macbook, and put them all in a company T-shirt, with a footnote "Representative models." Meanwhile the rest of you feel free to continue warming chairs with them.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  > It also gives me access to talent at a multiple of talent to dollars that you cannot even dream of. You not knowing the C-levels does this? > Meanwhile the rest of you feel free to continue warming chairs with them. Who's warming chairs?
- ulisesrmzroche 13y ago
  I've read this comment like 8 times now and I'm really starting to believe it's some sort of psychedelic fascist performance act. That rating people by letters bit was gold!
- logicallee 13y ago
  Just a note that I truly did mean to delete this after seeing what reception it got (a positive one here); however I was called away before even finishing it, and unfortunately it is now outside my edit window. (I was still editing it.) The comment should be regarded as a draft, only, of a satire and/or opinion piece.
moron4hire 13y ago
I got fired from a hardware startup because I wasn't pulling enough billable hours (actually, it was because I argued too much, didn't think it was good to put all of our eggs in one basket with one client--especially an abusive one--when we were trying to not be a consulting company, but the billable hours issue is what they went with). Of course, if they had not ignored my reports on a quarter million dollars of missing license revenue... oh well, their loss.
HarrietJones 13y ago
I was cool with it until here : "Well it turns out I could [be fired], unless it could be reasonably inferred that I was being fired for being part of a protected class. So had my boss said “The CEO thinks you dress like a faggot” or “The CEO thinks that’s what a nigger would wear”, things would have been different. But as it stands, the fact that my boss told me I was being fired related to appearance at all was definitely a dicey, questionable move." I've no idea why he feels the need to talk about how "protected classes" can't be fired when he's talking about why he was fired, but it seems as if he's no idea why some people are protected based on their sex, sexuality or color. Unless the author is gay, then “The CEO thinks you dress like a faggot” is in no way equivalent to "The CEO doesn't feel you have the right look for the company."
- retr0h 13y ago
  I agree, and I still don't understand why he chose the use of those words.
- FDpod 13y ago
  It wasn't worth getting into within the post, but there were strong suggestions that the CEO may have listened to a podcast of mine where I talk about having been an escort, and many people think I come off as gay. "What your look may convey to clients" really wasn't my favorite thing to hear. http://www.fdpod.com/podcasts/episode-19-coming-out-vince-mancini-matt-lieb-interview-eric-barry/ http://www.fdpod.com/podcasts/episode-19-coming-out-vince-ma...
  - askance 13y ago
    You didn't once mention the fact that you're wildly open about your personal life on the internet: http://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2013/01/30/cheap-dates-super-size-me/ http://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2013/01/30/cheap-dates-super-... I don't know about your employer, but I would certainly think twice about keeping an employee who clearly doesn't realize the effect that this brand of open honesty has on people outside of SF kink circles. They didn't can you because you were an escort; they canned you because you talk so openly about fucking on the internet, attached to your real name and without any kind of prompting. What else will you overshare?
jacques_chester 13y ago
So: 1. What do we know about the Boss? Nothing. Does he have a family? We don't know. 2. Is the Boss meant to quit simultaneously? Why? It's not clear that this would've stopped OP being fired. If he's such a good boss, quitting makes the situation worse for everyone left behind.
infoseckid 13y ago
I figured the whole "be loyal to yourself" stuff almost in my first job when I was not allowed to rise up the ladder too quick as "more senior people" need to be promoted first. That day I decided my job will always be my plan B. I am happy to report now I run my own , very profitable business and have achieved financial freedom from JOBS and BOSSES
DallaRosa 13y ago
More than the article itself, it's amazing how much prejudice people have, especially related to skin color. The guy can say "faggot" but if he says "nigger" you have a bunch of people saying how bad it is to use the "n" word. Oh come on. What he meant is as clear as water. People should grow up and realize that by doing that they're just stigmatizing the object of prejudice even more.
OGC 13y ago
Yeah, we still don't know why he was fired.
ArekDymalski 13y ago
"They were going to revolutionize the recruiting industry" by "online applications that discovered and ranked the aptitude of software developers", but failed with their own HR. Sigh ...

129 points by jfarmer 13y ago

I'm impressed his former boss sent him a note to state that he felt really bad about the way things happened. It would be nice if he'd done more initially but it still takes a lot of character to write that note and apologize vs just blow it off or chalk it up to the past.

krainboltgreene 13y ago
I disagree. There was nothing to lose by sending this and everything to gain. There was no character required to write an apology when you're no longer near the situation. I suspect he's just trying to rebuild burned bridges for better networking in SF (he just moved there).

dylangs1030 13y ago

If he had competing offers, he was in a good negotiating position. I can understand believing in a great company and drinking the kool-aid, but if you have competing offers and a company explicitly states, "Salary and equity are non-negotiable" - that's a huge red flag. You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. With very few exceptions, you don't want to put yourself in an environment where terms are dictated to you rather than opened on a floor with you for your input. Even if you fail miserably at the negotiation, at least you had an opportunity. Second to this - unless you're literally at-will employee, this is grounds for liability. The author was explicitly told, "You didn't do anything wrong, we're just getting rid of you because you don't fit." IANAL, so I won't harp on this as I don't know the particulars, but I'm fairly sure this is a case most lawyers wouldn't shy away from if everything is to be taken at face-value here (anyone with a law degree can correct me if I'm wrong). In any case...I'm glad the author received validation of his abilities, even if it was nearly a year later. Maybe his former boss will grow a backbone and rehire him for something awesome. At least he didn't burn a bridge.

VladRussian2 13y ago
>"Salary and equity are non-negotiable" ... >You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. that was the negotiation. The author took "being a part of that revolution" in lieu of money.
greenyoda 13y ago
"unless you're literally at-will employee, this is grounds for liability." "At-will" is pretty much the default in the U.S. Unless you're working under a union contract, or some other kind of contract that spells out a specific period of employment, you're probably at-will.
WalterBright 13y ago
> You should be allowed to negotiate as a savvy prospective employee. You can always negotiate. You can also dictate your terms. Of course, the other party can refuse your terms, just as you can refuse their terms.

rocky1138 13y ago

The big question: did he end up getting coffee with his former boss?

kintamanimatt 13y ago
It seems he didn't because he feels his former boss is untrustworthy and lacking in character; someone who's ready and willing to be someone's unthinking paid henchman. > His ethics meant nothing as long as he was having a paycheck lorded over him. > We need to be employed. But at the cost of what? Our ethics? Our passions? Those that trust us? I had to do a lot of extrapolating to come to this conclusion. Given the circumstance I wouldn't meet this former boss either. I learned a long time ago that people who'll screw me over once will screw me over again.
Apocryphon 13y ago
My big question is how exactly the way he looked triggered his dismissal.
- vinceguidry 13y ago
  I'd have marched into the CEO's office and demanded an explanation. Looked him straight in the eye and make him justify his decision.
  - trustfundbaby 13y ago
    ... And probably get hauled off by security or even worse the Police?
    - walshemj 13y ago
      So make sure you accidentally fall down on the way out and counter sue for GBH
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      It would be unwise for security to physically "haul" you off unless you were being violent, and even if they call the police, they will simply tell you to leave and not come back. Cops won't touch or arrest you in this situation unless you refuse to comply. You may or may not get the answer you want, but there's not much they can do about you making the attempt.

beefxq 13y ago

"Anyone who is worth a shit has been fired at least once."

nmcfarl 13y ago
Interesting theory. But it seems to indicate that the best piss off those higher up in the corporate food chain, and do it repeated, without results, until they get fired. From my perspective, both tact (and associated political skills), and knowing when to cut your losses are awesome skills that many of the best have. However - I do agree that getting fired can be a badge of honor.
driverdan 13y ago
Nope. I know plenty of people who have significant worth to their companies/clients and never been fired.
- smtddr 13y ago
  ... or never told you, or knew that they should quit before getting fired, or laid off(but the boss knows it was to get rid of him/her).
ChristianMarks 13y ago
There are certainly organizations for which this is true. How else would you know, at those places, whether someone was any good unless they were fired or badly mistreated?
- beefxq 13y ago
  http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/01/06/getting-fired-from-microsoft/‎ http://www.alexstjohn.com/WP/2013/01/06/getting-fired-from-m... Typically, these people should run their own companies or consulting instead of working for other people.
shubb 13y ago
I know you meant 'Anyone who takes risks gets fired eventually. Great people take risks.' But I got fired from a burger place once because I wasn't much good at making burgers. They also say 'Judge a man by his enemies. A man with no enemies is no man at all'. But I suspect most people you'd want to work with don't have enemies at work.

mathattack 13y ago

Very tough story. What I don't get is why someone who is so good at sales (the story supports this) is on food stamps. If you can say, "I landed clients A, B and C" then a competitor would hire you to do it for them too, no?

toyg 13y ago
After an experience like this, somebody like him would probably swear never to put himself in that position again.
- FDpod 13y ago
  Yes. Exactly (I'm the author). I never want to work in a cubicle again. Which is what the whole Full Disclosure thing is, trying to create my own business as to never deal with this or these types of people again.
  - mathattack 13y ago
    OP - If you can sell, you can sell yourself and your firm. Short term you'll have problems, but medium term you'll be ok and long term you'll do fine. Hang in there!
peterjancelis 13y ago
The counter-party risk for a sales guy is in seeing those commission checks coming in after you deliver the goods. Looks like his trust was violated and the new discounted expectations make him not apply for equivalent jobs anymore.

twigger 13y ago

Seems like it crashed, here's the cached version: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.fdpod.com/why-i-was-fired-from-a-tech-startup-and-what-my-boss-had-to-say-about-it/ http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:www.fdp...

radicalbyte 13y ago

Nice story, but we're hearing only one side of it. Was the writer working running his "sex and comedy" blog at the same time as working for the company? I can imagine the CEO sacking him when he came across the guy's blog; what with the pictures of vibrators and skanky models.. The start-up's customers were looking for Software Developers: unless they were limiting themselves to the young/liberal Bay then this kinda thing will be damaging to their image.

brianmcconnell 13y ago
I can imagine 99% of customers never putting two and two together in the first place. I talk to salespeople all the time, and not once have I thought to inquire about their personal interests, side projects, etc.
- PommeDeTerre 13y ago
  That may be true for you and the other 99% of customers. However, if that 1% of customers who do consider such things to matter are the most important of a given firm's customers, then their opinions on such issues can have an astronomical impact on the business.
  - soneca 13y ago
    An advise like "please put a hold on your side project or at least creat a different name to deal with that" would have solved the problem. Or at least would be transparent. Sure, we only listened to one side, but this sounds like creating absurd reasoning to try to justify what the company did.
    - blisterpeanuts 13y ago
      But once it's out there, it's connected to him -- in the cache, in people's memory, etc. Changing the name might help a bit, but then this is all speculation since he didn't find out whether his comedy work was a factor.
  - 13y ago

brianmcconnell 13y ago

Ah, the magic of "at will" employment. It's an excellent tool for those who rely on fear based management, and a horrible deal for employees. Based on my experience in the tech industry, I assume I am being lied to. Things have only gotten worse recently with all of the fast money sloshing around and the bad actors it has drawn in.

vinceguidry 13y ago
Yeah, it's to where if I get a whiff of dishonesty, I start submitting resumes. This is my third job since April and I've already started looking for the fourth. I used to think job-hopping would raise a red flag and keep me from getting hired, but it hasn't yet. I think if anything it signals value that you can find work at will.
- mratzloff 13y ago
  It hasn't yet that you are aware of. I would immediately pass on your resume without a second glance. Four jobs in less than six months very strongly signals a number of negative things to prospective employers. Perhaps the only companies willing to hire you now are those with high developer turnover who just need a warm body to fill the last vacated seat? And perhaps you are perpetuating that?
  - vinceguidry 13y ago
    Hmm. The 3 jobs I've gone through were all very different. One was a very small software development company, they decided after three weeks that they wanted someone with a lot more experience. I went from there to a huge corporation, where I was unhappy so I found another job. This one I'm at now is a largish "small business", like 300 employees. I'd be confident in my ability to find another should these guys suddenly not want me. But they told me when they hired me that it wasn't even a competition, I was that much better than their other candidates. It was like that at BigCorp too. Another thing is that all three were contract-to-hire, except for BigCorp, which omitted the hire part. I had significant accomplishments at each of them, making and delivering entire apps. This is reflected in the resume. It's a different world out there. You really have to try people out before you can commit to them. Many times it just doesn't make sense to continue.

peter_l_downs 13y ago

> I was told that neither salary nor equity were negotiable, but I was sold on the promise of the company. Yo, fuck that. Everything is negotiable to one degree or another. That sounds like someone trying to take advantage of you.

prawn 13y ago
Well, you can negotiate to not take the job... I don't see why a company can't hold its ground on salary if it chooses to rule out anyone wishing to get a bit more.
dustingetz 13y ago
There was a negotiation and he lost
rfnslyr 13y ago
I've never understood that. Just taking a job because OH MY GOD JOB. I've been in on going salary negotiations for over two months, all while they paid me the highest contrator salary just to have me stay on. Straight up said "Pay me X or I walk, thanks". 5 second meeting. FUCK company/corporate loyalty. I'm here to get paid so I can fund an adventurous life, not to make you richer. I'm here to make myself richer and that's 100% all there is to it. Know your value, unless you're really in a bind. That was it.
- redblacktree 13y ago
  I'd say in a healthy employee/employer relationship, you're both making each other richer.
  - coldtea 13y ago
    Nope -- you always make the boss richer.
    - redblacktree 13y ago
      Well, in the strictest sense, I'm getting richer by being employed. Of course, good money handling and living below my means are required for me to make progress. I think you mean to say that "my boss" is capturing more value from my work than I am, which is probably true, but that doesn't mean that we're not both benefiting. I look at it as a simple transaction; I give my time, he gives me money. I don't plan to keep this arrangement forever, but it's certainly making me richer right now.

PommeDeTerre 13y ago

Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, physical appearance can often have a big impact when dealing with certain clientele. Certain types of clients just prefer to deal with people who conform to what might be considered a more "conservative" appearance. Deviating from their expectations can reduce their level of trust, for instance, which can impact business dealings. This is especially true when dealing with customers from abroad, especially when there are other cultural differences at play. Some people have also had very, very bad experiences with other people who dress or groom themselves in a specific way. It's not the appearance itself that is harmful, but rather the association it has to other people who were directly involved with bad experiences in the past. An example of this are those Ruby on Rails developers who choose a so-called "hipster" appearance. It can only take one disastrous Ruby on Rails project for a client to consider all software developers who have such an appearance to be untrustworthy and unprofessional. Again, whether it's right or wrong, this can happen very easily. The specifics of this particular case aren't very clear. But I wouldn't be so quick to underestimate the importance or impact of physical appearance in general, when it comes to business dealings.

nknighthb 13y ago
> Some people have also had very, very bad experiences with other people who dress or groom themselves in a specific way. I've had very, very bad experiences with people who dress in suits. Indeed, the people who have had the most severe negative effects on my life have invariably worn suits. And I can't name many people I've had positive experiences with who ever wear suits. Yet, somehow, I don't think that's what you had in mind when defending this nonsense.
- pnathan 13y ago
  I think if we shook things around and looked at the PommeDeTerre's explanation another way, it'd come out like this: > People who are dressed in a suit represent the existing power structures; lots of people like said power structures; people with suits represent some sort of alignment with power structures and can resonate as an authority and conformer to the way things are. I want to clearly distance myself from this statement, but I recognize that it (or some variant of it) is adhered to by many people.

cjensen 13y ago

His boss fired him and told him why? Never do that. When firing someone in an at-will state, just do it and explain nothing. Explanations can easily lead to lawsuits. It's just not worth the risk.

md224 13y ago
Unrelated to the validity of this advice: it's kind of sad that our society has evolved legal structures that make it prohibitively risky to tell another human being why you're taking an action against them. Hmm... what if you could have an employee sign a release as a precondition of being told why they were fired?
- cheald 13y ago
  Then you'd have them sign it before you fire them for a bullshit, actually-worthy-of-a-lawsuit reason.
  - Thrymr 13y ago
    In which case, the waiver may be invalid anyway, since there are rights that you cannot legally waive.
    - jacques_chester 13y ago
      A lot of waivers and disclaimers have no legal effect, but they deter people who don't know that. Bluffing is part of legal risk management.
- shubb 13y ago
  I got a CV through the other day from a stranger. The guy had some great experience but the CV was weird. It was 10 pages long for 4 jobs. He listed every course he'd ever been sent on, including health and safety and diversity training ones, and just mixed his degree in somewhere with them. He listed each version of word he'd used (seemly every version released) with equal prominence as Java and SQL. Each time he'd been hired as a temp contractor he wrote his job title as CEO, because he was getting paid via his company. My boss laughed at it and told me to bin it. He needed to know what was wrong, or he'd stay unemployed (which was a shame for a guy with some great skills). I agonized for about a day and finally sent him some tips from my personal email, but I'm sure we could get sued if the strangeness was due to a disability. Something wrong there.

ececconi 13y ago

> Human Resources is not your advocate. Human Resources is a risk-assessment department. Powerful statement.

freehunter 13y ago
This is basically why unions were formed in the first place. HR is there to protect the company, and they are owned by the company. Unions are there to protect the employees, and they are owned by the employees. I know the current attitude is against unions, and there are probably a lot of anti-union people on HN, for good reasons. Unions realized their power and became corrupt, became money-hungry, became power-hungry. Unions were one hand in the pot that bankrupted Detroit. And that's a shame, because now employees have literally no one watching their backs. At-will employment and an employer-friendly environment creates a hostile work place where employees of many companies never know when or why they're going to be fired. Unions aren't entirely bad. Employers aren't entirely bad. It's just a shame we can't figure out a good balance of employer and employee protection.
- mjn 13y ago
  I find my union in Denmark helpful. I think union systems operate quite differently in different countries, for a mixture of cultural, legal, and economic reasons. For me it's exactly as you indicate: HR represents the employer's interest, the union represents my interests, and the two negotiate mutually agreeable working conditions that represent a compromise between each side's wishlist.
- mcv 13y ago
  Good unions are great. For employees, for the economy, and even for the employers. I don't understand how American unions got so crazy and self-destructive (or if they're not, why so many Americans are convinced the are).
  - rrouse 13y ago
    I'd say it's because of the same reason why some people vote against their own best interests (e.g. less taxes on the wealthy). They believe that one day, they will be rich and powerful, so they had better not vote in things that would affect them when they get there. The problem is, most of them never get there.

bdcravens 13y ago

My take was that once you strip away all the unicorn and ice cream BS, there's little magic that prevents a startup from being based on the same values that drive the largest companies. Bad leadership and greed tend to have the same result, whether in SF, Chicago, or St. Louis.

epoxyhockey 13y ago

One of the more frustrating things about working in the Bay Area is having to deal with finicky personalities like the OP's boss & CEO. It really takes a psychopath to court a potential hire so hard and then fire them 5 weeks later due to their appearance (after they sign a couple of large customers, btw). If this were NYC, I could understand stabbing someone in the back after they secure a couple of large customers. Though, in the Bay Area, it's like being stabbed in the back by a meth addict; sometimes it makes sense, most of the time it doesn't.

brianmcconnell 13y ago
I watched a CEO fire someone he had recruited cross country just weeks after he had relocated his family to the Bay Area. They screwed him and his family over real good. Not long afterward, the CEO fired his outside accountant and made his wife the CFO of the company. I straight up asked if he was hiding something, knowing that he probably was and that my stock and bonus were fictional. I was fired immediately afterward. I laughed gleefully on the drive home from the comically bad exit interview.
- _delirium 13y ago
  There's a certain level of unethical behavior in termination that can lead to a successful termination lawsuit even in an at-will state like California. Outright bad-faith conduct still violates the implicit covenant of good faith and fair dealing, though it's a fairly high bar to be held in violation. Cases where it's been found in the past include terminating an employee in a way calculated to harm the employee maximally, due to a boss settling a personal vendetta and being intemperate enough to say so; and engaging in a pattern of firing people just before promised benefits vest, in which case the company can be found to have been falsely promising benefits it never intended to deliver. Hiring your wife as a CFA to cover up questionable dealings seems like it might be leaning in that direction...
greenyoda 13y ago
"If this were NYC, I could understand stabbing someone in the back after they secure a couple of large customers." Why would that make sense in NYC or anywhere else? If someone brought in some large customers, I'd expect them to be able to bring in more large customers in the future. Firing someone with that track record would just be stupid.

logicallee 13y ago

I have a very different take here. I will delete it if it doesn't resonate with others: Those who live by the sword die by it. He particularly liked "you're a great cultural fit." That means you are JUST LIKE THEM. We can't say, "same race" (but it's true), we can't say, "same gender" (but it's true), and we can't say, "same taste in technology, living address, clothes and what you do on your off time" (but it's true - to the point that side projects are a part of many CTO job descriptions). Well, those who live by the sword die by it. What I really like about this story is that it shows just how shallow "cultural fit" is. At my company, I have no idea what some of my C-level people look like. This will absolutely shock some of you. It also gives me access to talent at a multiple of talent to dollars that you cannot even dream of. Sure, we will never put an "About us" page up with a 'culturally fit' workforce. We might even just use models of 16 28-year-old men who look exctly the same (maybe off of a swim team), give them all glasses and a Macbook, and put them all in a company T-shirt, with a footnote "Representative models." Meanwhile the rest of you feel free to continue warming chairs with them.

redblacktree 13y ago
> It also gives me access to talent at a multiple of talent to dollars that you cannot even dream of. You not knowing the C-levels does this? > Meanwhile the rest of you feel free to continue warming chairs with them. Who's warming chairs?
ulisesrmzroche 13y ago
I've read this comment like 8 times now and I'm really starting to believe it's some sort of psychedelic fascist performance act. That rating people by letters bit was gold!
logicallee 13y ago
Just a note that I truly did mean to delete this after seeing what reception it got (a positive one here); however I was called away before even finishing it, and unfortunately it is now outside my edit window. (I was still editing it.) The comment should be regarded as a draft, only, of a satire and/or opinion piece.

moron4hire 13y ago

I got fired from a hardware startup because I wasn't pulling enough billable hours (actually, it was because I argued too much, didn't think it was good to put all of our eggs in one basket with one client--especially an abusive one--when we were trying to not be a consulting company, but the billable hours issue is what they went with). Of course, if they had not ignored my reports on a quarter million dollars of missing license revenue... oh well, their loss.

HarrietJones 13y ago

I was cool with it until here : "Well it turns out I could [be fired], unless it could be reasonably inferred that I was being fired for being part of a protected class. So had my boss said “The CEO thinks you dress like a faggot” or “The CEO thinks that’s what a nigger would wear”, things would have been different. But as it stands, the fact that my boss told me I was being fired related to appearance at all was definitely a dicey, questionable move." I've no idea why he feels the need to talk about how "protected classes" can't be fired when he's talking about why he was fired, but it seems as if he's no idea why some people are protected based on their sex, sexuality or color. Unless the author is gay, then “The CEO thinks you dress like a faggot” is in no way equivalent to "The CEO doesn't feel you have the right look for the company."

retr0h 13y ago
I agree, and I still don't understand why he chose the use of those words.
FDpod 13y ago
It wasn't worth getting into within the post, but there were strong suggestions that the CEO may have listened to a podcast of mine where I talk about having been an escort, and many people think I come off as gay. "What your look may convey to clients" really wasn't my favorite thing to hear. http://www.fdpod.com/podcasts/episode-19-coming-out-vince-mancini-matt-lieb-interview-eric-barry/ http://www.fdpod.com/podcasts/episode-19-coming-out-vince-ma...
- askance 13y ago
  You didn't once mention the fact that you're wildly open about your personal life on the internet: http://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2013/01/30/cheap-dates-super-size-me/ http://brokeassstuart.com/blog/2013/01/30/cheap-dates-super-... I don't know about your employer, but I would certainly think twice about keeping an employee who clearly doesn't realize the effect that this brand of open honesty has on people outside of SF kink circles. They didn't can you because you were an escort; they canned you because you talk so openly about fucking on the internet, attached to your real name and without any kind of prompting. What else will you overshare?

jacques_chester 13y ago

So: 1. What do we know about the Boss? Nothing. Does he have a family? We don't know. 2. Is the Boss meant to quit simultaneously? Why? It's not clear that this would've stopped OP being fired. If he's such a good boss, quitting makes the situation worse for everyone left behind.

infoseckid 13y ago

I figured the whole "be loyal to yourself" stuff almost in my first job when I was not allowed to rise up the ladder too quick as "more senior people" need to be promoted first. That day I decided my job will always be my plan B. I am happy to report now I run my own , very profitable business and have achieved financial freedom from JOBS and BOSSES

DallaRosa 13y ago

More than the article itself, it's amazing how much prejudice people have, especially related to skin color. The guy can say "faggot" but if he says "nigger" you have a bunch of people saying how bad it is to use the "n" word. Oh come on. What he meant is as clear as water. People should grow up and realize that by doing that they're just stigmatizing the object of prejudice even more.

OGC 13y ago

Yeah, we still don't know why he was fired.

ArekDymalski 13y ago

"They were going to revolutionize the recruiting industry" by "online applications that discovered and ranked the aptitude of software developers", but failed with their own HR. Sigh ...