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Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective a

Something I noticed while in India myself, which may help explain (not excuse) some of the behavior (please note I am not discounting the author's perspective at all): I'm a little over 6 feet, blond hair and green eyes, and when I and my family were visiting India (Mumbai and a few other areas around Maharashtra), we got stared at really, really hard. Like everyone around us literally stopping on the street and doing nothing but stare. It was unnerving, naturally, and I asked my brother and his (now) wife about it, since they had been living there for about a year. They told me, and I later observed for myself, that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are. It's very honest, very unapologetic, and once you get over the taboo of the stare, very disarming. It's not just visiting Westerners either - they stare at each other, watch each other honestly, will walk across the street to get a better look, and crowd around something interesting. I saw it constantly and eventually understood it as a lack of interpersonal barriers that arise in a highly individualistic society. Everything is shared because in a city of 15-20 million people, there's hardly any space apart. People in major metro areas understand some aspect of this but it's hard to really grasp unless you're there. The problem, of course, arises when this lack of barriers combines with misogyny of the boldest type. Getting used to the constant stares is one thing for me, a man (and taller than most of my observers by a head), but for a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density, but the lack of respect for her body and humanity is not. It is rank and deep-seated sexism, and insitutionalized assault. There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.

Sven7 13y ago
I agree with most of what you say. There's just one point I want add. I have been to India and the US multiple times. If I judged the US, just based on my experiences living in downtown Detroit or Newark I would never visit the US ever again. Just thinking about the things I experienced gives me the shivers.
- sid6376 13y ago
  I have seen this culture of misogyny and treating women as sexual objects in almost all places in India I have lived in. Not trying to counter your point, just saying that this observation could have been written by a woman who spent her time in Kolkata/Chennai/Bangalore/Mumbai rather than in Pune. In fact Pune in some respects is much better than some of the cities I mentioned above.
  - Sven7 13y ago
    I agree. But just a word of caution, if we are talking about misogyny and treating women as sexual objects, lets also talk about the porn industry(which today is as responsible for the existence of the internet, as advertising is for Google). Is there a difference when the developed world spends countless hours objectifying women from the safety of their homes through technology?
    - eshvk 13y ago
      I will bite. Women in Pornography are paid to do that (mostly). Women who get raped on the streets of Delhi aren't paid to do that.
      - Sven7 13y ago
        Right. Objectifying women is okay as long as they get paid. And I guess in this fantasyland rape never happens too.
        eshvk 13y ago
        Nice. Way to miss the fucking point. Let me break it down for you. The article was an article on sexual harassment and rape in a specific country. Not this country. A different country. Totally different cultural values, objectives. You rambled on about two completely different issues: 1. The "developed world" and objectification of women here. 2. Pornography and the porn industry. The developed world, its issues are irrelevant here. Every time, a god damn article comes about something wrong in the third world, it is not necessary to bring up this world. It conflates the issue and introduces moral relativism. Sure there is female infanticide and female genital mutilation but HEY, women in tech in the bay area get shafted too. That in essence is the argument being made. To address the other issues of your muddled argument. Sure pornography might involve objectifying women. Sure it might be a bad thing. Sure someone must do something about it. Guess what? It is fucking irrelevant here. This is about women who go to a country and expect not to get raped. I think next time, I should just down vote and move on, instead of spending my time arguing online.
speeder 13y ago
I lived once with 6 indians that came to Brazil on a contract. One wanted to learn portuguese, and knew english really really well, and loved to talk (also he knew like 6 indian dialects, he really liked languages), and he was married. Talking with him, and later with the others when he was nearby, I learned that this is a kind of new thing, and they are confused... Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture with the western materialistic culture led to this weird bizarre culture where women are not seen as human anymore (and the lack of women because of female infanticide do not help either) EDIT: And yes, they are curious, and are not shy about it, also they loved museums a lot... They visited in 4 months more museums here in Brazil than I ever did in my whole life.
- VladRussian2 13y ago
  >Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture which wasn't a piece of cake either, reminded me about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi
toomuchtodo 13y ago
All the upvotes in the world for this: >There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.
- wozniacki 13y ago
  Perhaps we should add a few more countries while we are at this game. I'll bite first. Egypt. DISTURBING CONTENT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8 http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/journalist-safety-egypt http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/jour...
kamaal 13y ago
Sorry, If you had a bad experience in our country. Most people stare basically out of uncontrolled curiosity. In fact you get similar stares if you were to look differently than we do like for example say Chinese, African etc. This isn't just limited to white individuals but anybody in general. Situation in many parts of Bangalore is better. The solution to this problem is to let both our cultures mingle more, than just stay in isolation.
- grdvnl 13y ago
  To add to your comment: Even Indians who grow up in cities get the same kind of stares when they visit villages. As an young child every year when my siblings and I visit a tiny village where my parents grew up, there are always people who live around the neighborhood peeping through our doors to see who has arrived and what we were up to. Even when we walk in the muddy roads or ride in an ox-cart to visit the farms,we noticed everyone lines up on the road to watch us. And of course, this is more pronounced for woman. This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). But, this part of mannerism does not discount the extreme harassment the OP has experienced.
  - godzilla82 13y ago
    >This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). How is it good? Btw just because a lot of people practice a gross behavior doesn't make it part of the culture. I hate it when people give excuses for behavior by saying it is "cultural". By the same logic, Bride burning, dowry and female foeticide is also practiced, Do you also consider it a part of the culture?
    - ankitdvl 13y ago
      The main problem is with the level of education and mannerism 90% of the indians posses. These people are always in fear of god and trapped by their religions. They are not enlightened enough to make all the logical decisions themselves which causes the main problem. They try to objectify anything and everything they see. It's like a hungry man stealing food from shop. Without education and knowledge every society is equal to animals.
KumarAseem 13y ago
I totally disagree to, "that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are." Indians or for the matter of fact every human being is curious. But the stares described are not of curiosity but of lust, of wanting that body to satisfy a temporarily desire and then to boast about it to the friends. The biggest reason for such behaviour is the lack of respect that is given to a female in the Indian society. For every male god, there is an equally powerful or even more powerful a female god and we (quite a lot) Indians will go every day to the temple to ask the lady god for fulfillment of wishes but as soon as we are home we treat our wife, mother, sister with no respect at all. Not only the males are to be blamed for turning India into a male society but also women. There are many (hell lot) women in India who want a son (still do not understand the reason). If they have a girl and a boy and no matter how good the girl is when compared to the boy, the boy will always get more love and attention. I am an Indian and have lived all my life here and in many parts of the wonderful country. But it makes me sad to see the state we are going into.
rdtsc 13y ago
> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it. If that is is the culture (I imagine it is just "culture" in poor and uneducated parts, much like it would be in a trailer park in Mississippi perhaps) well then fuck that culture it is wrong.
- thelukester 13y ago
  I've traveled all over the world, from South America, India, to China. In all those places, the locals stare and take photos. They stare at me, also a redhead; they stare at my girlfriend, who is from LA and dresses like it. Unlike this sheltered author, when the kids take photos of us, the white ghosts, faragn, or gringos, we don't assume they're going to use it for porn. We're often the only white couple in the town. Sometimes they've never seen white people. It's what they do. When my gf was alone in India, she had guys come on to her a few times, but she said it was nothing compared to the aggressive behavior we encountered in Columbia and Cambodia. People like Rose Chasm, should stay in their small American towns. Someone with such vivid imagination and fragile psyche has no business traveling in 3rd world countries.
  - rdtsc 13y ago
    I grew up in a poor part of Easter Europe. Alcoholism, poverty, despair was around. It wasn't Africa, and there are lots, lots worse places in the world. We might not have always had enough food to eat, but we were lucky to have what we had. It is important to recognize when you are not safe and to know how to diffuse the situation and escape. In some of those places it could go from staring to stabbing quickly. Let's just say I had to act "crazy" a couple of times in order to be deemed not worth to bother with (this is a good strategy btw if you are by yourself in a bind) I can't judge of course for you, I wasn't there. But you perhaps underestimate the danger because you were with her. You are also not a woman. It is different for a single woman.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

Sven7 13y ago

I agree with most of what you say. There's just one point I want add. I have been to India and the US multiple times. If I judged the US, just based on my experiences living in downtown Detroit or Newark I would never visit the US ever again. Just thinking about the things I experienced gives me the shivers.

sid6376 13y ago
I have seen this culture of misogyny and treating women as sexual objects in almost all places in India I have lived in. Not trying to counter your point, just saying that this observation could have been written by a woman who spent her time in Kolkata/Chennai/Bangalore/Mumbai rather than in Pune. In fact Pune in some respects is much better than some of the cities I mentioned above.
- Sven7 13y ago
  I agree. But just a word of caution, if we are talking about misogyny and treating women as sexual objects, lets also talk about the porn industry(which today is as responsible for the existence of the internet, as advertising is for Google). Is there a difference when the developed world spends countless hours objectifying women from the safety of their homes through technology?
  - eshvk 13y ago
    I will bite. Women in Pornography are paid to do that (mostly). Women who get raped on the streets of Delhi aren't paid to do that.
    - Sven7 13y ago
      Right. Objectifying women is okay as long as they get paid. And I guess in this fantasyland rape never happens too.
      - eshvk 13y ago
        Nice. Way to miss the fucking point. Let me break it down for you. The article was an article on sexual harassment and rape in a specific country. Not this country. A different country. Totally different cultural values, objectives. You rambled on about two completely different issues: 1. The "developed world" and objectification of women here. 2. Pornography and the porn industry. The developed world, its issues are irrelevant here. Every time, a god damn article comes about something wrong in the third world, it is not necessary to bring up this world. It conflates the issue and introduces moral relativism. Sure there is female infanticide and female genital mutilation but HEY, women in tech in the bay area get shafted too. That in essence is the argument being made. To address the other issues of your muddled argument. Sure pornography might involve objectifying women. Sure it might be a bad thing. Sure someone must do something about it. Guess what? It is fucking irrelevant here. This is about women who go to a country and expect not to get raped. I think next time, I should just down vote and move on, instead of spending my time arguing online.

speeder 13y ago

I lived once with 6 indians that came to Brazil on a contract. One wanted to learn portuguese, and knew english really really well, and loved to talk (also he knew like 6 indian dialects, he really liked languages), and he was married. Talking with him, and later with the others when he was nearby, I learned that this is a kind of new thing, and they are confused... Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture with the western materialistic culture led to this weird bizarre culture where women are not seen as human anymore (and the lack of women because of female infanticide do not help either) EDIT: And yes, they are curious, and are not shy about it, also they loved museums a lot... They visited in 4 months more museums here in Brazil than I ever did in my whole life.

VladRussian2 13y ago
>Seemly the merging of a traditional patriarchal culture which wasn't a piece of cake either, reminded me about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoolan_Devi

toomuchtodo 13y ago

All the upvotes in the world for this: >There's a culture supporting this (which is not to say that Indians as a people do) and it needs to be dragged into the light of day and shot.

wozniacki 13y ago
Perhaps we should add a few more countries while we are at this game. I'll bite first. Egypt. DISTURBING CONTENT http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtPQvhNqNFY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yua66_tlBG8 http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/journalist-safety-egypt http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2013/jul/02/jour...

kamaal 13y ago

Sorry, If you had a bad experience in our country. Most people stare basically out of uncontrolled curiosity. In fact you get similar stares if you were to look differently than we do like for example say Chinese, African etc. This isn't just limited to white individuals but anybody in general. Situation in many parts of Bangalore is better. The solution to this problem is to let both our cultures mingle more, than just stay in isolation.

grdvnl 13y ago
To add to your comment: Even Indians who grow up in cities get the same kind of stares when they visit villages. As an young child every year when my siblings and I visit a tiny village where my parents grew up, there are always people who live around the neighborhood peeping through our doors to see who has arrived and what we were up to. Even when we walk in the muddy roads or ride in an ox-cart to visit the farms,we noticed everyone lines up on the road to watch us. And of course, this is more pronounced for woman. This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). But, this part of mannerism does not discount the extreme harassment the OP has experienced.
- godzilla82 13y ago
  >This is also part of Indian culture(good or bad). How is it good? Btw just because a lot of people practice a gross behavior doesn't make it part of the culture. I hate it when people give excuses for behavior by saying it is "cultural". By the same logic, Bride burning, dowry and female foeticide is also practiced, Do you also consider it a part of the culture?
  - ankitdvl 13y ago
    The main problem is with the level of education and mannerism 90% of the indians posses. These people are always in fear of god and trapped by their religions. They are not enlightened enough to make all the logical decisions themselves which causes the main problem. They try to objectify anything and everything they see. It's like a hungry man stealing food from shop. Without education and knowledge every society is equal to animals.

KumarAseem 13y ago

I totally disagree to, "that this type of looking and curiosity is part of how Indians generally are." Indians or for the matter of fact every human being is curious. But the stares described are not of curiosity but of lust, of wanting that body to satisfy a temporarily desire and then to boast about it to the friends. The biggest reason for such behaviour is the lack of respect that is given to a female in the Indian society. For every male god, there is an equally powerful or even more powerful a female god and we (quite a lot) Indians will go every day to the temple to ask the lady god for fulfillment of wishes but as soon as we are home we treat our wife, mother, sister with no respect at all. Not only the males are to be blamed for turning India into a male society but also women. There are many (hell lot) women in India who want a son (still do not understand the reason). If they have a girl and a boy and no matter how good the girl is when compared to the boy, the boy will always get more love and attention. I am an Indian and have lived all my life here and in many parts of the wonderful country. But it makes me sad to see the state we are going into.

rdtsc 13y ago

> or a woman it must be extra difficult to accept - and that's just the stares. The lack of respect for her space may be part of the collectivism that arises with incredible density I think it is not even close. She was groped and touched. That is sexual assault. It is not rape, but there are cases of Peace Corps volunteers getting raped. Chucking that up to culture is, perhaps trying a little too hard to defend it. If that is is the culture (I imagine it is just "culture" in poor and uneducated parts, much like it would be in a trailer park in Mississippi perhaps) well then fuck that culture it is wrong.

thelukester 13y ago
I've traveled all over the world, from South America, India, to China. In all those places, the locals stare and take photos. They stare at me, also a redhead; they stare at my girlfriend, who is from LA and dresses like it. Unlike this sheltered author, when the kids take photos of us, the white ghosts, faragn, or gringos, we don't assume they're going to use it for porn. We're often the only white couple in the town. Sometimes they've never seen white people. It's what they do. When my gf was alone in India, she had guys come on to her a few times, but she said it was nothing compared to the aggressive behavior we encountered in Columbia and Cambodia. People like Rose Chasm, should stay in their small American towns. Someone with such vivid imagination and fragile psyche has no business traveling in 3rd world countries.
- rdtsc 13y ago
  I grew up in a poor part of Easter Europe. Alcoholism, poverty, despair was around. It wasn't Africa, and there are lots, lots worse places in the world. We might not have always had enough food to eat, but we were lucky to have what we had. It is important to recognize when you are not safe and to know how to diffuse the situation and escape. In some of those places it could go from staring to stabbing quickly. Let's just say I had to act "crazy" a couple of times in order to be deemed not worth to bother with (this is a good strategy btw if you are by yourself in a bind) I can't judge of course for you, I wasn't there. But you perhaps underestimate the danger because you were with her. You are also not a woman. It is different for a single woman.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]