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Reading about the triggers made me think about depression as something that may have evolved as a defense/protection mechanism. It's clear he pursued far too mu

by joonix 13y ago

Reading about the triggers made me think about depression as something that may have evolved as a defense/protection mechanism. It's clear he pursued far too much, especially physically, that year. Perhaps humans evolved to become depressed after long rough period in order to make us slow down a bit, allow our bodies to repair and our minds to reflect?

npsimons 13y ago
If that's the case, then depression is (yet another) broken adaptation. If you've ever been depressed, you'd realize it doesn't rejuvenate - much the opposite, in fact.
- cpncrunch 13y ago
  I wouldn't say that. It seems that this type of depression is the brain's way of telling you that you need to make changes in your lifestyle to avoid stressors that are perceived as unnecessary. Once you make these changes you definitely do feel rejuvinated. I think most cases of depression have obvious causes if you care to look.
  - benched 13y ago
    I agree with you. The problem with depression, though, is that it does not make idle threats. In my experience, you get a window in which to make those changes, after which depression can stomp you into a hole so deep you can only get out with a lot of help, and tremendous effort. If you're lucky enough to find a way out at all. Many don't.
    - cpncrunch 13y ago
      Yes, I completely agree with you. Many (most?) times it's not obvious why the depression is happening. You really need to make significant lifestyle changes in the early stages of depression.
- kaoD 13y ago
  Perhaps it's a broken adaptation from an individual perspective, but working for groups. Depressed individuals are just being naturally deselected. You fail, then you die.
  - ufo 13y ago
    I think people tend to put way too much weight on adaptationist explanations for things. Its much more likely that the mechanisms for depression are there to handle some other beneficial thing and that depression is just a side effect of it. One thing that highlights this sort of reasoning really well is genetic diseases. In some situations (cystic fibrosis, syckle cell anemia, etc) the mutated gene gives benefits as long as you are lucky enough to not get two copies of it, in which case you get a fatal disease instead.
robbiep 13y ago
As a medical student I spent my psych rotation with a psychologist that was a fan of 'evolutionary psychology' His brief was that depression is evolutionary, and has an evolutionary function. In his view, depression is the result of 'loosing'. His example was a certain species of insect, I forget which now, which challenges another male to a display/fight. The looser not only turns bright orange in response to the stress hormone cascade released after loosing, but also stops eating and more than 50% die from starvation before recovering. How is this an adaptation? Well, the stress response reinforces hierarchy, and maintains group cohesion by providing a mechanism for 'shunning', both by other group members and by the individual theirselves. He was a big fan of Robert Trivers, an evolutionary psychiatrist who has written much on 'the evolution of reciprocal altruism'. Now the fact that depression may have a strong evolutionary cause is of course maladaptive in our modern world where we would like all people to enjoy happiness and be productive members of society.
- vacri 13y ago
  Little typos (loose/lose) can mean big things in medicine (eg hypo/hyper) - if you're continuing in the field, you should tighten that up.
  - robbiep 13y ago
    That's obsessively anal for a comment that adds nothing. No wonder you take issue with moderation and humour on HN. I browse on a phone, mistakes are easy to make. I'm well aware of the requirements of me in my profession but thanks for doing your civil duty and reminding me. I'm sure you're a real blast at parties!
benched 13y ago
As far as adaptations go, the most sensible model of depression I've ever run across is the one proposed by Howard Bloom. First, it's imperative to acknowledge humans as primarily social creatures, always living in relation to a social context, not self-sustaining individuals. Some of our adaptations affect our functioning as members of a social body, rather than our health as individuals. Succeeding, finding a place, securing resources by trading, creating a context for ourselves within a family and/or community - all these things trigger reward mechanisms in the brain. Doing well? Biologically you'll be stimulated to do even more in a positive feedback loop. Not doing well? Failing to find your place? Then you'll be anti-stimulated towards, essentially, death. you weren't working out, no need to prolong the dysfunction. Of course, this 'adaptation' causes tremendous prolonged suffering as it plays out, in practice.

by joonix 13y ago

npsimons 13y ago

If that's the case, then depression is (yet another) broken adaptation. If you've ever been depressed, you'd realize it doesn't rejuvenate - much the opposite, in fact.

cpncrunch 13y ago
I wouldn't say that. It seems that this type of depression is the brain's way of telling you that you need to make changes in your lifestyle to avoid stressors that are perceived as unnecessary. Once you make these changes you definitely do feel rejuvinated. I think most cases of depression have obvious causes if you care to look.
- benched 13y ago
  I agree with you. The problem with depression, though, is that it does not make idle threats. In my experience, you get a window in which to make those changes, after which depression can stomp you into a hole so deep you can only get out with a lot of help, and tremendous effort. If you're lucky enough to find a way out at all. Many don't.
  - cpncrunch 13y ago
    Yes, I completely agree with you. Many (most?) times it's not obvious why the depression is happening. You really need to make significant lifestyle changes in the early stages of depression.
kaoD 13y ago
Perhaps it's a broken adaptation from an individual perspective, but working for groups. Depressed individuals are just being naturally deselected. You fail, then you die.
- ufo 13y ago
  I think people tend to put way too much weight on adaptationist explanations for things. Its much more likely that the mechanisms for depression are there to handle some other beneficial thing and that depression is just a side effect of it. One thing that highlights this sort of reasoning really well is genetic diseases. In some situations (cystic fibrosis, syckle cell anemia, etc) the mutated gene gives benefits as long as you are lucky enough to not get two copies of it, in which case you get a fatal disease instead.

robbiep 13y ago

As a medical student I spent my psych rotation with a psychologist that was a fan of 'evolutionary psychology' His brief was that depression is evolutionary, and has an evolutionary function. In his view, depression is the result of 'loosing'. His example was a certain species of insect, I forget which now, which challenges another male to a display/fight. The looser not only turns bright orange in response to the stress hormone cascade released after loosing, but also stops eating and more than 50% die from starvation before recovering. How is this an adaptation? Well, the stress response reinforces hierarchy, and maintains group cohesion by providing a mechanism for 'shunning', both by other group members and by the individual theirselves. He was a big fan of Robert Trivers, an evolutionary psychiatrist who has written much on 'the evolution of reciprocal altruism'. Now the fact that depression may have a strong evolutionary cause is of course maladaptive in our modern world where we would like all people to enjoy happiness and be productive members of society.

vacri 13y ago
Little typos (loose/lose) can mean big things in medicine (eg hypo/hyper) - if you're continuing in the field, you should tighten that up.
- robbiep 13y ago
  That's obsessively anal for a comment that adds nothing. No wonder you take issue with moderation and humour on HN. I browse on a phone, mistakes are easy to make. I'm well aware of the requirements of me in my profession but thanks for doing your civil duty and reminding me. I'm sure you're a real blast at parties!

benched 13y ago

As far as adaptations go, the most sensible model of depression I've ever run across is the one proposed by Howard Bloom. First, it's imperative to acknowledge humans as primarily social creatures, always living in relation to a social context, not self-sustaining individuals. Some of our adaptations affect our functioning as members of a social body, rather than our health as individuals. Succeeding, finding a place, securing resources by trading, creating a context for ourselves within a family and/or community - all these things trigger reward mechanisms in the brain. Doing well? Biologically you'll be stimulated to do even more in a positive feedback loop. Not doing well? Failing to find your place? Then you'll be anti-stimulated towards, essentially, death. you weren't working out, no need to prolong the dysfunction. Of course, this 'adaptation' causes tremendous prolonged suffering as it plays out, in practice.