4 ms·

The "Why I quit" blog post serves as a kind of alternative exit interview process for the disgruntled and the outrage junkies. There are some tidbits of useful

by leokun 13y ago

The "Why I quit" blog post serves as a kind of alternative exit interview process for the disgruntled and the outrage junkies. There are some tidbits of useful information, and the discussion here has some good information, but the Goodbye X theme lacks a bit of thoughtfulness in its presentation. Personally I'd avoid such a tacky thing. Google didn't disappear nor has seemed to have changed despite all the "Why I quit Google" posts and I'm sure v8 will be just the same tomorrow. There's a bit of narcissism. The authors attribute a bit of too much self-importance, and yet the thing they left carries on just fine in their absence. Given that these posts actually do contribute useful information, changing the tone to "what I learned at X" from "why I quit X" may see more uptake and less squabbling in subsequent discussions. You'll also avoid burning a bridge. Edit: Every one of the downvotes this post gets are because this post runs counter to the HN echo chamber. I challenge someone to present an argument to explain otherwise. You've soaked yourself in outrage, and hell if anyone will say anything that may disagree with all that anger boiling up inside you. So you see some green nick and click downvote.

oso2k 13y ago
I've had several interactions with Stephan. He's offered several times (dozens maybe) to do contract work (or otherwise) to create, update and maintain the public interfaces documentation and any supporting documents during the least 3 years. Google's stance (via its devs) has always been that v8's sole purpose (in their view) is as the JS VM for Chrome. It is not a product like GWT. Promotion of its capabilities is as of a consequence of v8 being connected to Chrome. For the most part, Stephan's offers have been completely ignored with a couple devs occasionally accusing him of grandstanding. I do feel that, however, for whatever reason, Google has demonstrated a personal affinity for certain embedders (node.js specifically, CEF maybe) vs. the lesser know embedders (v8-juice, TeaJS, SilkJS, NarwhalJS). I don't agree that Stephan has assigned himself too much self-importance. In fact, Stephan devoted significant time to identifying corner cases in the public interfaces that are beneficial to all embedders and has always chosen to make those learning experiences public, either via the GoogleCode Wiki or on the various v8 lists.
- sgbeal 13y ago
  Wow... i didn't mean to start waves, which was why i unsubbed from the list within moments :/. i _really_ appreciate all of your support AND critiques (they are not unfair). Now i can't sleep. On a tablet, so won't say much more... Happy Hacking!
oso2k 13y ago
Again, Stephan has created and maintained multiple (46 in fact, [1]) treatments on what he has learned about v8. He even separated and a special wiki category, called "BitchAndMoan" [2], just so people wouldn't be confused about what were personal critiques and what were technical critiques. This isn't an "HN echo chamber" or a "woe is me circle jerk". This is a critique of Google's technical handling, feeding and nurturing of a (non-)product. I've embedded JavaScript for almost 15 years, since Mozilla's SpiderMonkey was ported to DOS/DJGPP[3][4]. There's dozens and dozens of successful embedders of various size and purpose [5][6] supported by Mozilla via SpiderMonkey and/or Rhino. While in college, I added LAM/MPI hooks and developed multi-monitor applications years before multi-monitor graphics cards were commercially available. Stephan is a former SpiderMonkey embedder[7]. I'm former colleagues with Shanti Rao of JSDB (SpiderMonkey) while at NASA/JPL [8]. There is a huge difference in support in what Mozilla provides [9] vs. what Google provides [10]. Stephan's critique is, without a doubt, a fair critique. [1]http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/w/list http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/w/list [2]http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/wiki/CommentaryOnV8 http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/wiki/CommentaryOnV8 [3]http://marc.info/?l=freedos-dev&m=94670703232745 http://marc.info/?l=freedos-dev&m=94670703232745 [4]http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dominic.liquid3.com.au/js/ http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dominic.liquid3.com.au/j... [5]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript [6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Uses_outside_web_pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Uses_outside_web_pag... [7]http://spiderape.sourceforge.net/ http://spiderape.sourceforge.net/ [8]http://www.jsdb.org/ http://www.jsdb.org/ [9]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/SpiderMonkey https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/SpiderMonkey [10]http://code.google.com/p/v8/w/list http://code.google.com/p/v8/w/list
- sgbeal 13y ago
  If i ever commission a biography, i'm coming to you to write it for me ;).
nocman 13y ago
"Every one of the downvotes this post gets are because this post runs counter to the HN echo chamber." It seems ironic to me that you make this statement (which would you could not possibly know to be true without being omiscient), and then add: "... hell if anyone will say anything that may disagree with all that anger boiling up inside you." While there are no doubt many ex-Google (and ex-other-high-profile-company) employees who put out poorly-worded and sometimes poorly-defended rants which in the end serve little purpose other than to vent their own frustration, I do not think you can lump Stephan's post in with them. I have followed Stephan's work for many years. He is one of those rare developers who actually enjoys putting out high volumes of good documentation (which he readily admits on his own web sites). He appears to be passionately invested in every open source project he contributes to, and is quick to invest large quantities of his own time in helping others to use the code he has made generously available for others to use (much of it in the public domain, btw). I do not always agree with everything he says, but I give him great credit for his generousity. While he may like to see himself given some credit for his contributions (who doesn't), he doesn't much struck me as the narcissistic type. Overall the interactions I've had with him (and the ones I've read online) have been quite civil. Occasionally, such as in this post, his passion for what he believes comes to the fore, and I suppose that might turn some off. However, I don't consider this post to be too far over-the-top, and it is obvious that he is trying to express a great deal of frustration while attempting to remain as civil as possbile. I think he at least mostly achieved that goal. It is a difficult thing to abandon a project you have invested a lot of time in for over four years, especially when you feel the project could have easily been so much more if circumstances beyond your control would have been different. Also, I don't think posts such as Stephan's ever need to have an effect on the offending party's behavior (in this case, Google and/or the V8 developer). There are many developers who have an interest in using and/or embedding V8 in their software, and having these insights into possible problems with doing so is worthwhile information by itself. The fact that Node.js uses V8 makes this information valuable in my opinion. IMHO you owe it to yourself to take a look at Stephan's work (both inside and outside the v8-juice project), and perhaps form a different opinion.
- sgbeal 13y ago
  A very heartfelt thank you for your depiction and endorsement. :) PS: i don't always agree with everything i say, either ;)
sgbeal 13y ago
i would say "hubris" rather than "narcissism." My goal was not to change v8 - my goal was to explain to the cvv8/v8-juice users why i cannot afford to expend more energy supporting v8 by making their APIs more accessible (which is, in effect, what cvv8 is for). That goal, it seems, has succeeded far more than i dared hope, as is evidenced by this thread. Regarding the bridge burning: i did that on purpose. At certain points i find that i must shut down all paths which might lead me back to something which i know in my heart i don't want to go back to. It keeps me from "being weak" and trying to crawl back in the future.
sgbeal 13y ago
PS: @leokun: FWIW, i up-voted you. Your suggestion about the change of tone from frustration to information is something i will definitely keep in mind for the next time (no, there's no sarcasm there!). Unfortunately, i didn't have that insight in advance this time (which would have made it foresight, i guess, which you have now armed me with :-).

by leokun 13y ago

oso2k 13y ago

I've had several interactions with Stephan. He's offered several times (dozens maybe) to do contract work (or otherwise) to create, update and maintain the public interfaces documentation and any supporting documents during the least 3 years. Google's stance (via its devs) has always been that v8's sole purpose (in their view) is as the JS VM for Chrome. It is not a product like GWT. Promotion of its capabilities is as of a consequence of v8 being connected to Chrome. For the most part, Stephan's offers have been completely ignored with a couple devs occasionally accusing him of grandstanding. I do feel that, however, for whatever reason, Google has demonstrated a personal affinity for certain embedders (node.js specifically, CEF maybe) vs. the lesser know embedders (v8-juice, TeaJS, SilkJS, NarwhalJS). I don't agree that Stephan has assigned himself too much self-importance. In fact, Stephan devoted significant time to identifying corner cases in the public interfaces that are beneficial to all embedders and has always chosen to make those learning experiences public, either via the GoogleCode Wiki or on the various v8 lists.

sgbeal 13y ago
Wow... i didn't mean to start waves, which was why i unsubbed from the list within moments :/. i _really_ appreciate all of your support AND critiques (they are not unfair). Now i can't sleep. On a tablet, so won't say much more... Happy Hacking!

oso2k 13y ago

Again, Stephan has created and maintained multiple (46 in fact, [1]) treatments on what he has learned about v8. He even separated and a special wiki category, called "BitchAndMoan" [2], just so people wouldn't be confused about what were personal critiques and what were technical critiques. This isn't an "HN echo chamber" or a "woe is me circle jerk". This is a critique of Google's technical handling, feeding and nurturing of a (non-)product. I've embedded JavaScript for almost 15 years, since Mozilla's SpiderMonkey was ported to DOS/DJGPP[3][4]. There's dozens and dozens of successful embedders of various size and purpose [5][6] supported by Mozilla via SpiderMonkey and/or Rhino. While in college, I added LAM/MPI hooks and developed multi-monitor applications years before multi-monitor graphics cards were commercially available. Stephan is a former SpiderMonkey embedder[7]. I'm former colleagues with Shanti Rao of JSDB (SpiderMonkey) while at NASA/JPL [8]. There is a huge difference in support in what Mozilla provides [9] vs. what Google provides [10]. Stephan's critique is, without a doubt, a fair critique. [1]http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/w/list http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/w/list [2]http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/wiki/CommentaryOnV8 http://code.google.com/p/v8-juice/wiki/CommentaryOnV8 [3]http://marc.info/?l=freedos-dev&m=94670703232745 http://marc.info/?l=freedos-dev&m=94670703232745 [4]http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dominic.liquid3.com.au/js/ http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://dominic.liquid3.com.au/j... [5]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript [6]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Uses_outside_web_pages http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript#Uses_outside_web_pag... [7]http://spiderape.sourceforge.net/ http://spiderape.sourceforge.net/ [8]http://www.jsdb.org/ http://www.jsdb.org/ [9]https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/SpiderMonkey https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/SpiderMonkey [10]http://code.google.com/p/v8/w/list http://code.google.com/p/v8/w/list

sgbeal 13y ago
If i ever commission a biography, i'm coming to you to write it for me ;).

nocman 13y ago

"Every one of the downvotes this post gets are because this post runs counter to the HN echo chamber." It seems ironic to me that you make this statement (which would you could not possibly know to be true without being omiscient), and then add: "... hell if anyone will say anything that may disagree with all that anger boiling up inside you." While there are no doubt many ex-Google (and ex-other-high-profile-company) employees who put out poorly-worded and sometimes poorly-defended rants which in the end serve little purpose other than to vent their own frustration, I do not think you can lump Stephan's post in with them. I have followed Stephan's work for many years. He is one of those rare developers who actually enjoys putting out high volumes of good documentation (which he readily admits on his own web sites). He appears to be passionately invested in every open source project he contributes to, and is quick to invest large quantities of his own time in helping others to use the code he has made generously available for others to use (much of it in the public domain, btw). I do not always agree with everything he says, but I give him great credit for his generousity. While he may like to see himself given some credit for his contributions (who doesn't), he doesn't much struck me as the narcissistic type. Overall the interactions I've had with him (and the ones I've read online) have been quite civil. Occasionally, such as in this post, his passion for what he believes comes to the fore, and I suppose that might turn some off. However, I don't consider this post to be too far over-the-top, and it is obvious that he is trying to express a great deal of frustration while attempting to remain as civil as possbile. I think he at least mostly achieved that goal. It is a difficult thing to abandon a project you have invested a lot of time in for over four years, especially when you feel the project could have easily been so much more if circumstances beyond your control would have been different. Also, I don't think posts such as Stephan's ever need to have an effect on the offending party's behavior (in this case, Google and/or the V8 developer). There are many developers who have an interest in using and/or embedding V8 in their software, and having these insights into possible problems with doing so is worthwhile information by itself. The fact that Node.js uses V8 makes this information valuable in my opinion. IMHO you owe it to yourself to take a look at Stephan's work (both inside and outside the v8-juice project), and perhaps form a different opinion.

sgbeal 13y ago
A very heartfelt thank you for your depiction and endorsement. :) PS: i don't always agree with everything i say, either ;)

sgbeal 13y ago

i would say "hubris" rather than "narcissism." My goal was not to change v8 - my goal was to explain to the cvv8/v8-juice users why i cannot afford to expend more energy supporting v8 by making their APIs more accessible (which is, in effect, what cvv8 is for). That goal, it seems, has succeeded far more than i dared hope, as is evidenced by this thread. Regarding the bridge burning: i did that on purpose. At certain points i find that i must shut down all paths which might lead me back to something which i know in my heart i don't want to go back to. It keeps me from "being weak" and trying to crawl back in the future.

sgbeal 13y ago

PS: @leokun: FWIW, i up-voted you. Your suggestion about the change of tone from frustration to information is something i will definitely keep in mind for the next time (no, there's no sarcasm there!). Unfortunately, i didn't have that insight in advance this time (which would have made it foresight, i guess, which you have now armed me with :-).