7 ms·

Some of what people want is positive-sum: Books, aquariums, theater showings, even cars. As we get more productive, the amount of time you need to work for thes

Some of what people want is positive-sum: Books, aquariums, theater showings, even cars. As we get more productive, the amount of time you need to work for these decreases. A lot of what people want is zero-sum: Location, status symbols, and so forth. If you want to live in the centre of town you need to work more than anyone else who so wants, not just as much as it takes to cover the maintenance. This is, I believe, a large part of why working hours aren't going down. You could work less, but then you'd lose out to someone who doesn't.

coldtea 13y ago
The problem is a lot of what "people want" they are actually indoctrinated to want.
mixmax 13y ago
This is a good observation. I've put some effort into circumventing the zero-sum things, though I haven't thought about it this way before. I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. My living expenses come down to harbour rent, electricity and heating in the winter. Over a year that's an average of $300 a month. I live in the smack middle of Copenhagen. On top of this comes living expenses, clothes, etc. But I'm not very materialistic so that's quite cheap too. The surprising result (for me at least) is that I'm out of the status race, and people envy me for the freedom I've gained. By choice I haven't been working for more than a year, and I can afford it, and don't feel much pressure taking any old job. I'm looking for something interesting, but if it doesn't turn up I can live without. In the meantime I spend time doing all the sideprojects, art things, and hanging out a lot of other people are dreaming about while they slave away. To quote Fight Club: "the things you own end up owning you"
- RyanZAG 13y ago
  I think you're discounting that most people really don't want to live on a boat. An alternative is living in the countryside, but most people don't want to live there either. It's not just materialism or a status symbol at play here, but the preferences of the majority of society pushing people into zero-sum. If people suddenly decided that living on a boat isn't that bad (not going to happen), then the price of docking your boat in the middle of Copenhagen would be through the roof in short order. Still zero sum.
  - mixmax 13y ago
    From anecdotal evidence I don't think you're right. Every summer I speak to an average of three strangers a week that stroll by the harbour and ask about how to get a space, how to buy a boat, and how they can go about doing it. But very few people take the plunge. When I tell people how I live most of them are envious (some think I'm crazy too). I think what's keeping people from doing it is fear. Most people don't have the courage to break with deepheld norms such as living in a house or an apartment.
    - fab13n 13y ago
      I also live on a boat, in France, and the pressure on mooring places is unbearable in many places, including all of those conveniently close to "good" jobs. This is worsened by the waterways administration's Kafka-like madness. For instance, a boat which has mooring rights in Paris will cost about €600K more than the same one in an unremarkable place (mooring rights are effectively attached to a boat, and non-transferable). So more extensive evidence shows that when living in a boat becomes popular, prices (in money and inconveniences) do skyrocket.
    - craigyk 13y ago
      No, I do think he's right. They might be honestly curious about the details of living on a boat, but in the end not really that interested in pursuing it for themselves. Many think of it as something they might really like to try out for a year or two... tops. others, likely see the appeal but realize that it's not a realistic option for them (spouses, children, pets, etc.). If everyone wanted to live on a boat too, there is no way your costs would stay the same (slip costs would go through the roof).
- AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
  You are my hero. I keep telling people (friends and parents) that a life like yours is possible. Not necessarily a boat, but something outside the box. But here in Flanders (Belgium), that's unthinkable. Every Fleming should have a house and very Fleming has a massive debt because of it. We love building so much, that there's almost no space left!
  - twoodfin 13y ago
    To be fair: You do build lovely, functional houses in one of the most beautiful parts of Europe.
    - sbmassey 13y ago
      Some disagree: http://uglybelgianhouses.tumblr.com/ http://uglybelgianhouses.tumblr.com/
      - twoodfin 13y ago
        Ha! At least those are all interesting. Many American neighborhoods are row after row of the same boring "Colonial" or "Ranch" designs.
- thyrsus 13y ago
  That sounds wonderful, but the line I'd always heard was "A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into" - that is, they are expensive to maintain. How do you avoid that?
  - mixmax 13y ago
    If you are a little handy and know how to work an angle grinder and a circular saw it's really not that expensive. Plus you have something to do in the weekends :-)
    - Filligree 13y ago
      In other words, you're substituting your own time for money. That's no different than working and paying someone else to do it, economically, but I imagine you enjoy it. More power to you. :-) Actually, my family owns a country home (far from anywhere; land tax is ~zero) that's also next a fjord. As in, a meter and a half from the water. We've got a floating dock. I've been wondering about how to maintain it, now that our patriarch is getting too old to do so. The main issue, really, is how to get back and forth - I'd love to live there semi-full-time, but realistically can't do so in the winter, and the roads are getting worse every year now that all the farmers are gone. Using a suitably large boat seems like an interesting option, and would give me the choice of living closer to some town if I need to work closely with people on some project. If you have some figures - how much it actually costs, etc. - that'd be great. I certainly wouldn't mind doing maintenance myself, but I expect it still won't be free. Also, what model boat do you have?
      - mixmax 13y ago
        Send me an e-mail, it's in my profile. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have, and help in any way I can. Sounds like a great project!
  - barret907k 13y ago
    I think this comes from boats used for free time. They cost a lot and you spend relativly little time on it. Now if you live on the boat you are using it which would make it more economical however I'm sure the upkeep and fuel costs more than a house would.
- singingfish 13y ago
  I do something similar, but I live in the rat race. I have a job that keeps me going on part time hours nicely, and I just built a house (largely with money).
- yread 13y ago
  I think that almost everybody can do that - cut down a bit on the living expenses, save some money, quit your job and look for something worth doing. I am currently doing it and wasn't such a trouble
- hedgew 13y ago
  >I'm out of the status race, and people envy me for the freedom They probably envy your newfound status.
- hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
  > I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. Man, you're living the dream. I'm in Brazil, real estate prices in the big cities are on par with US or Europe, but credit is worse (interest rates are 9-10%). I'm starting to entertain this option, which would be perfect since we have such a long coast. I also love to be in contact with nature. The price of a decent 30 feet sailboat is half the price of a 1 bedroom downtown apartment (plus, you don't have land tax), so it also makes sense financially. Do you have any experiences to share?
vanderZwan 13y ago
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the article isn't really about that, and he also briefly touched on this point: > The standard line today is that he didn’t figure in the massive increase in consumerism. Given the choice between less hours and more toys and pleasures, we’ve collectively chosen the latter. This presents a nice morality tale, but even a moment’s reflection shows it can’t really be true. Yes, we have witnessed the creation of an endless variety of new jobs and industries since the ‘20s, but very few have anything to do with the production and distribution of sushi, iPhones, or fancy sneakers.
LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
Your post seems to boil down to: products manufactured on cheap in China cost much less than real estate in London and car from Munich. The problem is that before globalization happened you could afford stuff manufactured locally without working 60 hour weeks super-sophisticated high end jobs requiring sacrificing your youth to study and hard work.
msh 13y ago
I think this depends on where you are, in my experience north Americans tend to work far more hours than people from northen europe. The normal working hours where I come from is around 37 hours. I have a 36 hours work week with all overtime must be taken as time off at some other time. (of cause there are also people who work more).
baseraid 13y ago
There are negative sum jobs as well. Pharma people, promoting harmful drugs, soldiers or criminals.
- polymatter 13y ago
  soldiers do not belong in that group. they generally do significant good just as a sitting deterrent. much more than yet another mediocre web developer. how their political masters choose to use them however ...
  - AimHere 13y ago
    >they generally do significant good just as a sitting deterrent. ... to other soldiers. And the same logic dictates that everyone involved in the whole dismal advertising industry does significant necessary good works by offering their clients a means to neutralise the benefits that their rivals get from THEIR advertisers. I'd contend that bullshit jobs that are necessary to counteract the effects of other bullshit jobs are still bullshit! How it's possible to make both sets of bullshit jobs obsolete is left as an exercise for the social engineer, of course...
- a3voices 13y ago
  Not all criminals are negative sum. For example, digital piracy is positive sum.
mason240 13y ago
This is exactly it. On a related note, look at how fast food restaurants no longer sell fast, cheap food. Instead they sell experiences. McDonalds has the McCafe thing, and even KFC is trying to rebrand itself as something more like Panera Bread. We have moved beyond the point where the item itself is readily available, so what is desired now is the experience that goes with it.
- dragonwriter 13y ago
  I think you overstate the case with fast food -- lots of their marketing still seems to be about fast and cheap -- but to the extent that it is less focussed than that in the past I think it is because fast food outlets are marketing to differentiate themselves from each other because they are ingrained enough on culture that they don't need as much to differentiate from traditional restaurants.
keithpeter 13y ago
I like the positive/zero sum analysis. Alas, in the UK, living near a viable job is actually regarded as sum positive!
rwallace 13y ago
Which is why I, a moderate libertarian, have reluctantly acknowledged the need for a legal maximum 30 hour working week; the evidence for market failure in this area is sufficiently overwhelming that I can no longer ignore it.

coldtea 13y ago

The problem is a lot of what "people want" they are actually indoctrinated to want.

mixmax 13y ago

This is a good observation. I've put some effort into circumventing the zero-sum things, though I haven't thought about it this way before. I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. My living expenses come down to harbour rent, electricity and heating in the winter. Over a year that's an average of $300 a month. I live in the smack middle of Copenhagen. On top of this comes living expenses, clothes, etc. But I'm not very materialistic so that's quite cheap too. The surprising result (for me at least) is that I'm out of the status race, and people envy me for the freedom I've gained. By choice I haven't been working for more than a year, and I can afford it, and don't feel much pressure taking any old job. I'm looking for something interesting, but if it doesn't turn up I can live without. In the meantime I spend time doing all the sideprojects, art things, and hanging out a lot of other people are dreaming about while they slave away. To quote Fight Club: "the things you own end up owning you"

RyanZAG 13y ago
I think you're discounting that most people really don't want to live on a boat. An alternative is living in the countryside, but most people don't want to live there either. It's not just materialism or a status symbol at play here, but the preferences of the majority of society pushing people into zero-sum. If people suddenly decided that living on a boat isn't that bad (not going to happen), then the price of docking your boat in the middle of Copenhagen would be through the roof in short order. Still zero sum.
- mixmax 13y ago
  From anecdotal evidence I don't think you're right. Every summer I speak to an average of three strangers a week that stroll by the harbour and ask about how to get a space, how to buy a boat, and how they can go about doing it. But very few people take the plunge. When I tell people how I live most of them are envious (some think I'm crazy too). I think what's keeping people from doing it is fear. Most people don't have the courage to break with deepheld norms such as living in a house or an apartment.
  - fab13n 13y ago
    I also live on a boat, in France, and the pressure on mooring places is unbearable in many places, including all of those conveniently close to "good" jobs. This is worsened by the waterways administration's Kafka-like madness. For instance, a boat which has mooring rights in Paris will cost about €600K more than the same one in an unremarkable place (mooring rights are effectively attached to a boat, and non-transferable). So more extensive evidence shows that when living in a boat becomes popular, prices (in money and inconveniences) do skyrocket.
  - craigyk 13y ago
    No, I do think he's right. They might be honestly curious about the details of living on a boat, but in the end not really that interested in pursuing it for themselves. Many think of it as something they might really like to try out for a year or two... tops. others, likely see the appeal but realize that it's not a realistic option for them (spouses, children, pets, etc.). If everyone wanted to live on a boat too, there is no way your costs would stay the same (slip costs would go through the roof).
AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
You are my hero. I keep telling people (friends and parents) that a life like yours is possible. Not necessarily a boat, but something outside the box. But here in Flanders (Belgium), that's unthinkable. Every Fleming should have a house and very Fleming has a massive debt because of it. We love building so much, that there's almost no space left!
- twoodfin 13y ago
  To be fair: You do build lovely, functional houses in one of the most beautiful parts of Europe.
  - sbmassey 13y ago
    Some disagree: http://uglybelgianhouses.tumblr.com/ http://uglybelgianhouses.tumblr.com/
    - twoodfin 13y ago
      Ha! At least those are all interesting. Many American neighborhoods are row after row of the same boring "Colonial" or "Ranch" designs.
thyrsus 13y ago
That sounds wonderful, but the line I'd always heard was "A boat is a hole in the water you throw money into" - that is, they are expensive to maintain. How do you avoid that?
- mixmax 13y ago
  If you are a little handy and know how to work an angle grinder and a circular saw it's really not that expensive. Plus you have something to do in the weekends :-)
  - Filligree 13y ago
    In other words, you're substituting your own time for money. That's no different than working and paying someone else to do it, economically, but I imagine you enjoy it. More power to you. :-) Actually, my family owns a country home (far from anywhere; land tax is ~zero) that's also next a fjord. As in, a meter and a half from the water. We've got a floating dock. I've been wondering about how to maintain it, now that our patriarch is getting too old to do so. The main issue, really, is how to get back and forth - I'd love to live there semi-full-time, but realistically can't do so in the winter, and the roads are getting worse every year now that all the farmers are gone. Using a suitably large boat seems like an interesting option, and would give me the choice of living closer to some town if I need to work closely with people on some project. If you have some figures - how much it actually costs, etc. - that'd be great. I certainly wouldn't mind doing maintenance myself, but I expect it still won't be free. Also, what model boat do you have?
    - mixmax 13y ago
      Send me an e-mail, it's in my profile. I'll be happy to answer any questions you might have, and help in any way I can. Sounds like a great project!
- barret907k 13y ago
  I think this comes from boats used for free time. They cost a lot and you spend relativly little time on it. Now if you live on the boat you are using it which would make it more economical however I'm sure the upkeep and fuel costs more than a house would.
singingfish 13y ago
I do something similar, but I live in the rat race. I have a job that keeps me going on part time hours nicely, and I just built a house (largely with money).
yread 13y ago
I think that almost everybody can do that - cut down a bit on the living expenses, save some money, quit your job and look for something worth doing. I am currently doing it and wasn't such a trouble
hedgew 13y ago
>I'm out of the status race, and people envy me for the freedom They probably envy your newfound status.
hcarvalhoalves 13y ago
> I live on a boat that I've paid with cash, and thus own. Man, you're living the dream. I'm in Brazil, real estate prices in the big cities are on par with US or Europe, but credit is worse (interest rates are 9-10%). I'm starting to entertain this option, which would be perfect since we have such a long coast. I also love to be in contact with nature. The price of a decent 30 feet sailboat is half the price of a 1 bedroom downtown apartment (plus, you don't have land tax), so it also makes sense financially. Do you have any experiences to share?

vanderZwan 13y ago

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but the article isn't really about that, and he also briefly touched on this point: > The standard line today is that he didn’t figure in the massive increase in consumerism. Given the choice between less hours and more toys and pleasures, we’ve collectively chosen the latter. This presents a nice morality tale, but even a moment’s reflection shows it can’t really be true. Yes, we have witnessed the creation of an endless variety of new jobs and industries since the ‘20s, but very few have anything to do with the production and distribution of sushi, iPhones, or fancy sneakers.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago

Your post seems to boil down to: products manufactured on cheap in China cost much less than real estate in London and car from Munich. The problem is that before globalization happened you could afford stuff manufactured locally without working 60 hour weeks super-sophisticated high end jobs requiring sacrificing your youth to study and hard work.

msh 13y ago

I think this depends on where you are, in my experience north Americans tend to work far more hours than people from northen europe. The normal working hours where I come from is around 37 hours. I have a 36 hours work week with all overtime must be taken as time off at some other time. (of cause there are also people who work more).

baseraid 13y ago

There are negative sum jobs as well. Pharma people, promoting harmful drugs, soldiers or criminals.

polymatter 13y ago
soldiers do not belong in that group. they generally do significant good just as a sitting deterrent. much more than yet another mediocre web developer. how their political masters choose to use them however ...
- AimHere 13y ago
  >they generally do significant good just as a sitting deterrent. ... to other soldiers. And the same logic dictates that everyone involved in the whole dismal advertising industry does significant necessary good works by offering their clients a means to neutralise the benefits that their rivals get from THEIR advertisers. I'd contend that bullshit jobs that are necessary to counteract the effects of other bullshit jobs are still bullshit! How it's possible to make both sets of bullshit jobs obsolete is left as an exercise for the social engineer, of course...
a3voices 13y ago
Not all criminals are negative sum. For example, digital piracy is positive sum.

mason240 13y ago

This is exactly it. On a related note, look at how fast food restaurants no longer sell fast, cheap food. Instead they sell experiences. McDonalds has the McCafe thing, and even KFC is trying to rebrand itself as something more like Panera Bread. We have moved beyond the point where the item itself is readily available, so what is desired now is the experience that goes with it.

dragonwriter 13y ago
I think you overstate the case with fast food -- lots of their marketing still seems to be about fast and cheap -- but to the extent that it is less focussed than that in the past I think it is because fast food outlets are marketing to differentiate themselves from each other because they are ingrained enough on culture that they don't need as much to differentiate from traditional restaurants.

keithpeter 13y ago

I like the positive/zero sum analysis. Alas, in the UK, living near a viable job is actually regarded as sum positive!

rwallace 13y ago

Which is why I, a moderate libertarian, have reluctantly acknowledged the need for a legal maximum 30 hour working week; the evidence for market failure in this area is sufficiently overwhelming that I can no longer ignore it.