3 ms·

Well, they wrote their own infringing java VM for mobile, tried to fix Python (but it didn't work out), essentially run Google Linux internally with various lev

by seiji 13y ago

Well, they wrote their own infringing java VM for mobile, tried to fix Python (but it didn't work out), essentially run Google Linux internally with various levels of contribution back upstream, and their C++ is (I'm just guessing here) nigh unreadable by non-übernerds.

marshray 13y ago
Wrote an "infringing Java VM" now did they? Did you actually read the court's ruling on that?
- pjmlp 13y ago
  I did, and to be honest it is not much different than Microsoft with Visual J++. Without the "Google is cool glasses" on, I came to the conclusion that Google just took enough care to avoid all the legal traps that could make them loose a suit like it happened to Microsoft.
  - marshray 13y ago
    Disclosure: I work for Microsoft but that is a very new thing (the J++ dispute was many years ago) IIRC, the J++ suit had to do with the specific terms of a license agreement that Sun and Microsoft had entered into. I don't think it was much like this where Google claimed to have done a non-infringing clean-room reimplementation claiming this didn't require a license from Sun/Oracle at all.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Yes, this is what I mean by taking care. Google did a clean room implementation, while making a clear distinction between Java the language and Java the VM, while avoiding doing any kind of public statement that could violate the Java licensing trademark. So now you have an environment, where Java the language version 6 can be used, while Java the language version 8 is going to appear next year, without any signs of ever appearing in Android. Now, quite possibly as consequence of the litigation, Java developers targeting Android have to live with Java the language version 6 forever. The end result is no different than the fragmentation Microsoft attempted with J++, but since it is Google, it is ok to do so.
      - michaelwww 13y ago
        > Now, quite possibly as consequence of the litigation, Java developers targeting Android have to live with Java the language version 6 forever. I suspect this was one of the motivations behind Dart.
        pjmlp 13y ago
        Actually I did wonder about it at this year's Google IO, as it was hinted Dart is being used for some projects that would be in due time revealed. That is actually the only way I see any future for Dart.
        michaelwww 13y ago
        Dart is excellent in few cases on the client. First, if you can forget about older browsers, and second if you don't need to use a lot of pre-existing JavaScript libs in your app, and third if you don't need to use the web control on iOS. Dart as a Chrome Packaged App should shine. I really enjoy developing in it. I don't have any experience with it on the server, so couldn't say there.
      - marshray 13y ago
        Yeah. My sense is that Android developers aren't nearly as interested in 'Java the write once run everywhere platform' as developers who were adopting Java in the 1990s. So, like Apple and ObjectiveC, mobile developers are just willing to go where the platform takes them rather than push for evolution of the language per se. Maybe it's just that mobile apps are much smaller than the monsters enterprise devs need language help to manage.
        cageface 13y ago
        Speaking as a sometime Android developer, I use Java for Android because I have to, not because I'm particularly fond of Java. The biggest upside of a JVM on Android in this respect is that I have alternative languages like Kotlin available.
  - cageface 13y ago
    The president of Sun himself praised Google's Dalvik initiative. What legal trap were they trying to avoid here? http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110724/11263315224/oracle-deletes-jonathan-schwartzs-old-blog-which-excitedly-celebrated-googles-use-java-android.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110724/11263315224/oracle...
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Not having enough money to sue them, so the alternative was praise. From James Gosling himself, http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/my_attitude_on_oracle_v http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/my_attitude_on_oracle... > Google totally slimed Sun. We were all really disturbed, even Jonathan: he just decided to put on a happy face and tried to turn lemons into lemonade, which annoyed a lot of folks at Sun.
EdiX 13y ago
> their C++ is (I'm just guessing here) nigh unreadable by non-übernerds. Judging by their coding guidelines the C++ they use is a smallish subset of the full C++ language hence very bearable.
chetanahuja 13y ago
"and their C++ is (I'm just guessing here) nigh unreadable by non-übernerds." Actually google C++ codebase is some of the most carefully written and extensively commented codebase I've ever had the pleasure to work on. Of course a large amount of google C++ codebase is open source (Chromium, leveldb etc.) and you're free to read it and form informed opinions instead of guessing.
fauigerzigerk 13y ago
Why guess if you can look for yourself? Here's the Chromium source for instance: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/ http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/ In my opinion, Google's C++ code is exceptionally readable.

by seiji 13y ago

marshray 13y ago

Wrote an "infringing Java VM" now did they? Did you actually read the court's ruling on that?

pjmlp 13y ago
I did, and to be honest it is not much different than Microsoft with Visual J++. Without the "Google is cool glasses" on, I came to the conclusion that Google just took enough care to avoid all the legal traps that could make them loose a suit like it happened to Microsoft.
- marshray 13y ago
  Disclosure: I work for Microsoft but that is a very new thing (the J++ dispute was many years ago) IIRC, the J++ suit had to do with the specific terms of a license agreement that Sun and Microsoft had entered into. I don't think it was much like this where Google claimed to have done a non-infringing clean-room reimplementation claiming this didn't require a license from Sun/Oracle at all.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Yes, this is what I mean by taking care. Google did a clean room implementation, while making a clear distinction between Java the language and Java the VM, while avoiding doing any kind of public statement that could violate the Java licensing trademark. So now you have an environment, where Java the language version 6 can be used, while Java the language version 8 is going to appear next year, without any signs of ever appearing in Android. Now, quite possibly as consequence of the litigation, Java developers targeting Android have to live with Java the language version 6 forever. The end result is no different than the fragmentation Microsoft attempted with J++, but since it is Google, it is ok to do so.
    - michaelwww 13y ago
      > Now, quite possibly as consequence of the litigation, Java developers targeting Android have to live with Java the language version 6 forever. I suspect this was one of the motivations behind Dart.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Actually I did wonder about it at this year's Google IO, as it was hinted Dart is being used for some projects that would be in due time revealed. That is actually the only way I see any future for Dart.
        michaelwww 13y ago
        Dart is excellent in few cases on the client. First, if you can forget about older browsers, and second if you don't need to use a lot of pre-existing JavaScript libs in your app, and third if you don't need to use the web control on iOS. Dart as a Chrome Packaged App should shine. I really enjoy developing in it. I don't have any experience with it on the server, so couldn't say there.
    - marshray 13y ago
      Yeah. My sense is that Android developers aren't nearly as interested in 'Java the write once run everywhere platform' as developers who were adopting Java in the 1990s. So, like Apple and ObjectiveC, mobile developers are just willing to go where the platform takes them rather than push for evolution of the language per se. Maybe it's just that mobile apps are much smaller than the monsters enterprise devs need language help to manage.
      - cageface 13y ago
        Speaking as a sometime Android developer, I use Java for Android because I have to, not because I'm particularly fond of Java. The biggest upside of a JVM on Android in this respect is that I have alternative languages like Kotlin available.
- cageface 13y ago
  The president of Sun himself praised Google's Dalvik initiative. What legal trap were they trying to avoid here? http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110724/11263315224/oracle-deletes-jonathan-schwartzs-old-blog-which-excitedly-celebrated-googles-use-java-android.shtml http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110724/11263315224/oracle...
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Not having enough money to sue them, so the alternative was praise. From James Gosling himself, http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/my_attitude_on_oracle_v http://nighthacks.com/roller/jag/entry/my_attitude_on_oracle... > Google totally slimed Sun. We were all really disturbed, even Jonathan: he just decided to put on a happy face and tried to turn lemons into lemonade, which annoyed a lot of folks at Sun.

EdiX 13y ago

> their C++ is (I'm just guessing here) nigh unreadable by non-übernerds. Judging by their coding guidelines the C++ they use is a smallish subset of the full C++ language hence very bearable.

chetanahuja 13y ago

"and their C++ is (I'm just guessing here) nigh unreadable by non-übernerds." Actually google C++ codebase is some of the most carefully written and extensively commented codebase I've ever had the pleasure to work on. Of course a large amount of google C++ codebase is open source (Chromium, leveldb etc.) and you're free to read it and form informed opinions instead of guessing.

fauigerzigerk 13y ago

Why guess if you can look for yourself? Here's the Chromium source for instance: http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/ http://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/ In my opinion, Google's C++ code is exceptionally readable.