4 ms·

I'm curious exactly what you have to do in transit through the UK if detained and questioned. I'd presumably identify myself, and comply politely for a few min

by rdl 13y ago

I'm curious exactly what you have to do in transit through the UK if detained and questioned. I'd presumably identify myself, and comply politely for a few minutes, but once it became pretty clear I was going to miss my flight, I'd want to know the various options. I have zero interest in being in the UK if in transit, so "we're going to send you back to Germany" "do it, then" is fine. Or, "you're an asshole, we're going to put you on the next flight to Brazil and never let you enter the UK" is also fine. The risk would be that "actively non-cooperative" is a sign of "is a terrorist" and then you get the free flight to Cuba. It seems obvious that a targeted person should travel with a lot of older/disposable devices full of lightly encrypted but legal "NSFL" material, like medical/battlefield/surgery photos or, depending on the country, various types of legal porn. Or perhaps Slavoj Zizek books sans title information.

rdl 13y ago
Oh wow, under title 7 in the UK it is a criminal offense to refuse to answer questions for any reason during that 9 hour period. Looks like a total travel boycott of the UK is prudent. In addition to compelled disclosure of keys, it is worse than the US for this reason too.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  Funny I thought you of all people would be aware of this :) Yes, the UK is worse. I never really got why Assange went there willingly in the first place.
  - rdl 13y ago
    I dislike the uk for purely practical reasons (expensive and wages aren't higher to compensate outside finance, not actually different enough from the US to be interesting to me). I knew about RIP but not about the border detention issue. My international flights tend to be nonstop or via very particular airports due to weapons laws (when I was flying to Iraq often), or to Asia, not Europe. I'd also probably not go via the UK due to frequent flyer status on Star Alliance which doesn't use London as a hub for flights to continental Europe as much.
    - jacquesm 13y ago
      You're best off to go through either Schiphol, Paris or Frankfurt (in that order). Paris has really good connections to Latin America as well (direct flights), Schiphol not as many but quite a few.
      - rdl 13y ago
        As a Star Alliance person, it's almost always Frankfurt. LH Senator made it a whole lot better, too. AF had a cool "Petroleum Club" program, too, which let anyone marginally affiliated with the oil industry get free lounge access and other benefits. I'd still almost always prefer making my connection within the US and flying nonstop from the US to my final European destination. I generally only fly ex-SFO, JFK, IAD so there's generally a non-stop flight anyway.
- gsnedders 13y ago
  Try asserting any right to silence at the US border — you won't get far. If you are not a US national, I'd expect you to be refused entry (and as one is required to complete an ETSA prior to arrival, one is required to sign away any right to appeal of the decision of the border control staff).
  - rdl 13y ago
    Oh, I'm totally fine with people who are non-cooperative and non-citizens being denied entry. I'm a US Citizen, so I have an absolute right to re-enter the US without answering any questions (they do have a right to make sure I'm who I say I am, and that I'm not carrying any prohibited things in contravention of customs regulations, but that's it). I'm not sure how it works for transit. Also, if I were not a US citizen (and, even as a US citizen), I'd avoid the US as a transit country if at all possible -- lack of sterile transit makes it a pain due to waiting and scheduling even if you're a citizen, and if you're not visa waiver, it's horrible. The UK does sterile transit, so most travelers shouldn't even have to touch security/immigration/customs if they're in transit only, which is what confuses me about this story.
    - DigitalTurk 13y ago
      Do they do this at Heathrow? I only transferred there once but I had to go through security again. The Heathrow airport is quite a mess, actually.
    - gsnedders 13y ago
      If you're entering the EU or a Schengen-signatory, even for a transit flight, you are required to pass through security (all passengers on any flight departing within the EU must have passed through EU-legislated security, to avoid the case where their incoming security has been lax). Some places include more (the UK requires security for /all/ passengers arrival on an international flight, regardless of the EU). What one doesn't have to do is pass through border control or customs (unless one is transferring onto a domestic flight, then quite where you clear border control and customs varies from place to place — in the UK you clear the border at the port of entry and customs upon arrival at your final destination). Also — just to note, I can't imagine anyone ever being actually arrested under the no-right-to-silence clause (and if they did, I expect it'd just get take to the ECHR and thrown out) except potentially for UK citizens/subjects/nationals/whatever-other-categories-there-are-that-I-always-forget (for whom entry cannot be refused). If what you mean by not being sure how it works for transit is how it works in the US — you must posses a valid visa (probably a transit visa) or not need a visa (VWP, citizenship, etc.) for entry into the US, regardless of your further destination. Sadly, for many of us from Europe, many flights to South America require pre-approval from the US, because you cross US airspace, even though you never land.
- Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
  They are not in UK though. They are in a transit zone which arguably is international land. So the UK laws would not apply.

by rdl 13y ago

rdl 13y ago

Oh wow, under title 7 in the UK it is a criminal offense to refuse to answer questions for any reason during that 9 hour period. Looks like a total travel boycott of the UK is prudent. In addition to compelled disclosure of keys, it is worse than the US for this reason too.

jacquesm 13y ago
Funny I thought you of all people would be aware of this :) Yes, the UK is worse. I never really got why Assange went there willingly in the first place.
- rdl 13y ago
  I dislike the uk for purely practical reasons (expensive and wages aren't higher to compensate outside finance, not actually different enough from the US to be interesting to me). I knew about RIP but not about the border detention issue. My international flights tend to be nonstop or via very particular airports due to weapons laws (when I was flying to Iraq often), or to Asia, not Europe. I'd also probably not go via the UK due to frequent flyer status on Star Alliance which doesn't use London as a hub for flights to continental Europe as much.
  - jacquesm 13y ago
    You're best off to go through either Schiphol, Paris or Frankfurt (in that order). Paris has really good connections to Latin America as well (direct flights), Schiphol not as many but quite a few.
    - rdl 13y ago
      As a Star Alliance person, it's almost always Frankfurt. LH Senator made it a whole lot better, too. AF had a cool "Petroleum Club" program, too, which let anyone marginally affiliated with the oil industry get free lounge access and other benefits. I'd still almost always prefer making my connection within the US and flying nonstop from the US to my final European destination. I generally only fly ex-SFO, JFK, IAD so there's generally a non-stop flight anyway.
gsnedders 13y ago
Try asserting any right to silence at the US border — you won't get far. If you are not a US national, I'd expect you to be refused entry (and as one is required to complete an ETSA prior to arrival, one is required to sign away any right to appeal of the decision of the border control staff).
- rdl 13y ago
  Oh, I'm totally fine with people who are non-cooperative and non-citizens being denied entry. I'm a US Citizen, so I have an absolute right to re-enter the US without answering any questions (they do have a right to make sure I'm who I say I am, and that I'm not carrying any prohibited things in contravention of customs regulations, but that's it). I'm not sure how it works for transit. Also, if I were not a US citizen (and, even as a US citizen), I'd avoid the US as a transit country if at all possible -- lack of sterile transit makes it a pain due to waiting and scheduling even if you're a citizen, and if you're not visa waiver, it's horrible. The UK does sterile transit, so most travelers shouldn't even have to touch security/immigration/customs if they're in transit only, which is what confuses me about this story.
  - DigitalTurk 13y ago
    Do they do this at Heathrow? I only transferred there once but I had to go through security again. The Heathrow airport is quite a mess, actually.
  - gsnedders 13y ago
    If you're entering the EU or a Schengen-signatory, even for a transit flight, you are required to pass through security (all passengers on any flight departing within the EU must have passed through EU-legislated security, to avoid the case where their incoming security has been lax). Some places include more (the UK requires security for /all/ passengers arrival on an international flight, regardless of the EU). What one doesn't have to do is pass through border control or customs (unless one is transferring onto a domestic flight, then quite where you clear border control and customs varies from place to place — in the UK you clear the border at the port of entry and customs upon arrival at your final destination). Also — just to note, I can't imagine anyone ever being actually arrested under the no-right-to-silence clause (and if they did, I expect it'd just get take to the ECHR and thrown out) except potentially for UK citizens/subjects/nationals/whatever-other-categories-there-are-that-I-always-forget (for whom entry cannot be refused). If what you mean by not being sure how it works for transit is how it works in the US — you must posses a valid visa (probably a transit visa) or not need a visa (VWP, citizenship, etc.) for entry into the US, regardless of your further destination. Sadly, for many of us from Europe, many flights to South America require pre-approval from the US, because you cross US airspace, even though you never land.
Andrew_Quentin 13y ago
They are not in UK though. They are in a transit zone which arguably is international land. So the UK laws would not apply.