4 ms·

On the US's murderous sanctions against Iraq (and nuking Japan, for that matter): Lesley Stahl: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean,

On the US's murderous sanctions against Iraq (and nuking Japan, for that matter): Lesley Stahl: "We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?" Madeleine Albright: "We think the price is worth it." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Albright_interview http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctions_against_Iraq#Albright...) Dissidents (those who Greenwald praises) point out that international politics runs on the mafia model. (Keeping in mind that the mafia is small and nation-states are large. https://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/11/03-2 https://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/11/03-2)

davidw 13y ago
Inane comments like this are one of the many reasons why political discussions on HN are so bad. The thinking that most politicians are just like people who would take a 12 year old boy and dump him in a vat of acid after strangling him is shallow and devoid of any depth of thinking on how different organizations operate. States do dirty things, and so do individuals, and so do organizations on various levels. But there's a lot of differences in incentives, capabilities, tradeoffs, calculations and so on between them all. If you are really interested in understanding the world, rather than making the point that THE GUBERMENT IS EEEVIL, thinking about some of these differences would behoove you. So: are you genuinely so poorly informed that you see no difference, or are you completely blinded by your libertarian propaganda as to not see any difference? I live in Italy, and like many people, I intensely dislike Berlusconi. But, you know what? I'd prefer him 10 times - 100 times - to the sort of people who run actual Mafias.
- jacquesm 13y ago
  Berlusconi is pretty deep in bed with the Mafia and would not be where he is without them. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/uk-italy-mafia-trial-idUKBRE92O0UD20130325 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/uk-italy-mafia-tria...
  - davidw 13y ago
    "It's complicated". He's a fairly rotten guy in many ways; in all likelihood he's made deals with them, but isn't at all involved in their actual operations.
    - davidw 13y ago
      For those actually interested in learning about Berlusconi and Italy, this book is pretty good: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZZMBAS/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZZMBAS/?tag=dedasys-20 By a former corespondent for The Economist in Italy. I don't really think the Mafia was an integral component of his success though - in some ways that's an easy out for people looking for someone to blame for the whole Berlusconi phenomenon.
  - calibraxis 13y ago
    Interestingly, the US apparently reconstituted the Mafia (which had been destroyed by Mussolini) to undermine WWII resistance, labor unions and leftist movements. The stuff they don't teach in school... (http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200205--.htm http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200205--.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_United_States_government_and_Italian_Mafia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_Unit...)
    - agilebyte 13y ago
      Yes, not many fascist leaders from Italy were ever prosecuted for their crimes post war. Caused quite a stir in places like Yugoslavia. Britain was initially trying to be helpful but they were losing support from the locals (Italians) and then USA told them to back off.
      - ordinary 13y ago
        The same thing happened in Germany. The top level guys were tried at Nuremberg, but Nazi 'middle management' ruled West Germany for decades after the war. This, in turn, was an important motivation for the formation of the Rote Armee Fraktion. Western liberal democracy often forgets (or pretends to forget) that history is a thing, and that people have memoeries. There are many more instances where Western foreign policy (often initiated by the US, supported by Europe) was beneficial to us in the short term, while having negative long term consequences. The CIA calls it 'blowback'. The last century in the Middle East and South and Central America is riddled with it. And then people turn around and ask 'why do they hate us?'. I despair.

davidw 13y ago

Inane comments like this are one of the many reasons why political discussions on HN are so bad. The thinking that most politicians are just like people who would take a 12 year old boy and dump him in a vat of acid after strangling him is shallow and devoid of any depth of thinking on how different organizations operate. States do dirty things, and so do individuals, and so do organizations on various levels. But there's a lot of differences in incentives, capabilities, tradeoffs, calculations and so on between them all. If you are really interested in understanding the world, rather than making the point that THE GUBERMENT IS EEEVIL, thinking about some of these differences would behoove you. So: are you genuinely so poorly informed that you see no difference, or are you completely blinded by your libertarian propaganda as to not see any difference? I live in Italy, and like many people, I intensely dislike Berlusconi. But, you know what? I'd prefer him 10 times - 100 times - to the sort of people who run actual Mafias.

jacquesm 13y ago
Berlusconi is pretty deep in bed with the Mafia and would not be where he is without them. http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/uk-italy-mafia-trial-idUKBRE92O0UD20130325 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/25/uk-italy-mafia-tria...
- davidw 13y ago
  "It's complicated". He's a fairly rotten guy in many ways; in all likelihood he's made deals with them, but isn't at all involved in their actual operations.
  - davidw 13y ago
    For those actually interested in learning about Berlusconi and Italy, this book is pretty good: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZZMBAS/?tag=dedasys-20 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004ZZMBAS/?tag=dedasys-20 By a former corespondent for The Economist in Italy. I don't really think the Mafia was an integral component of his success though - in some ways that's an easy out for people looking for someone to blame for the whole Berlusconi phenomenon.
- calibraxis 13y ago
  Interestingly, the US apparently reconstituted the Mafia (which had been destroyed by Mussolini) to undermine WWII resistance, labor unions and leftist movements. The stuff they don't teach in school... (http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200205--.htm http://www.chomsky.info/interviews/200205--.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_United_States_government_and_Italian_Mafia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collaborations_between_the_Unit...)
  - agilebyte 13y ago
    Yes, not many fascist leaders from Italy were ever prosecuted for their crimes post war. Caused quite a stir in places like Yugoslavia. Britain was initially trying to be helpful but they were losing support from the locals (Italians) and then USA told them to back off.
    - ordinary 13y ago
      The same thing happened in Germany. The top level guys were tried at Nuremberg, but Nazi 'middle management' ruled West Germany for decades after the war. This, in turn, was an important motivation for the formation of the Rote Armee Fraktion. Western liberal democracy often forgets (or pretends to forget) that history is a thing, and that people have memoeries. There are many more instances where Western foreign policy (often initiated by the US, supported by Europe) was beneficial to us in the short term, while having negative long term consequences. The CIA calls it 'blowback'. The last century in the Middle East and South and Central America is riddled with it. And then people turn around and ask 'why do they hate us?'. I despair.