6 ms·

It seems really low, but I don't really know what to dispute among p. 56 estimates. Energy comes from solar panels. It doesn't seem to factor in maintenance. Ev

by zeteo 13y ago

It seems really low, but I don't really know what to dispute among p. 56 estimates. Energy comes from solar panels. It doesn't seem to factor in maintenance. Even if the cost turns out to be double and we factor in a 20% profit margin, it would still be much cheaper (and possibly faster) than a HSR ticket.

tptacek 13y ago
Amtrak can't even cover it's operating costs with it's (much more expensive) ticket. Amtrak's operating expenses are dominated by headcount costs. Amtrak is obviously not a model of efficiency, but it's certainly a valid data point about the scale of operating costs we're talking about. The $20 ticket is a myth. The only way anyone pays $20 to ride this thing is if the taxpayers take up the other $140 of slack.
- jbooth 13y ago
  For the record, last I heard, Amtrak is actually incredibly profitable in the northeast and almost profitable along the west coast. It's the losses from running the rest of the system that kill it.
- zeteo 13y ago
  Amtrak has a very different business, operating and even physical model. Sure, they're both transportation, but unless there's detail in the specifics we might as well compare the Chinatown bus with renting a Cessna.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    Yeah, I shouldn't have made the crack about Amtrak not covering its budget; it too vividly drew a comparison between Amtrak's structural problems and the hypothetical problems of this project. The only point I was actually trying to make is the (I hope) uncontroversial one that operating expenses for a transit system are high.
- dvanduzer 13y ago
  A ~30 minute trip does not require the conductors, attendants or kitchen staff of, say, the two day trip the California Zephyr takes. The overhead of those workers' wages would scale roughly with ridership. Amtrak ridership is up dramatically this year[0], but it is still 20x smaller than for domestic air travel[1]. They employ nearly 5000 people in mechanical and maintenance roles[2], which is a cost largely independent of ridership. You can argue the case that Musk's cost estimates are overly optimistic, but Amtrak's operating costs are largely relevant. [0] http://www.sacbee.com/2013/03/01/5227255/amtrak-ridership-up-55-percent.html http://www.sacbee.com/2013/03/01/5227255/amtrak-ridership-up... [1] http://www.transtats.bts.gov http://www.transtats.bts.gov [2] http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/533/3/Amtrak-Mechanical-Services-201109.pdf http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/533/3/Amtrak-Mechanical-Services...

by zeteo 13y ago

tptacek 13y ago

Amtrak can't even cover it's operating costs with it's (much more expensive) ticket. Amtrak's operating expenses are dominated by headcount costs. Amtrak is obviously not a model of efficiency, but it's certainly a valid data point about the scale of operating costs we're talking about. The $20 ticket is a myth. The only way anyone pays $20 to ride this thing is if the taxpayers take up the other $140 of slack.

jbooth 13y ago
For the record, last I heard, Amtrak is actually incredibly profitable in the northeast and almost profitable along the west coast. It's the losses from running the rest of the system that kill it.
zeteo 13y ago
Amtrak has a very different business, operating and even physical model. Sure, they're both transportation, but unless there's detail in the specifics we might as well compare the Chinatown bus with renting a Cessna.
- tptacek 13y ago
  Yeah, I shouldn't have made the crack about Amtrak not covering its budget; it too vividly drew a comparison between Amtrak's structural problems and the hypothetical problems of this project. The only point I was actually trying to make is the (I hope) uncontroversial one that operating expenses for a transit system are high.
dvanduzer 13y ago
A ~30 minute trip does not require the conductors, attendants or kitchen staff of, say, the two day trip the California Zephyr takes. The overhead of those workers' wages would scale roughly with ridership. Amtrak ridership is up dramatically this year[0], but it is still 20x smaller than for domestic air travel[1]. They employ nearly 5000 people in mechanical and maintenance roles[2], which is a cost largely independent of ridership. You can argue the case that Musk's cost estimates are overly optimistic, but Amtrak's operating costs are largely relevant. [0] http://www.sacbee.com/2013/03/01/5227255/amtrak-ridership-up-55-percent.html http://www.sacbee.com/2013/03/01/5227255/amtrak-ridership-up... [1] http://www.transtats.bts.gov http://www.transtats.bts.gov [2] http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/533/3/Amtrak-Mechanical-Services-201109.pdf http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/533/3/Amtrak-Mechanical-Services...