5 ms·

Aren't we arguing about the wrong things here? The hyperloop is actually something worth having as it will get you from SF to LA in 30 mins. Even if it costs mo

by RyanZAG 13y ago

Aren't we arguing about the wrong things here? The hyperloop is actually something worth having as it will get you from SF to LA in 30 mins. Even if it costs more and takes less people than HSR, it's still far better than HSR for actually getting you between the two cities in the kind of time people would like. If you could set up these 30 min hops between cities all over the world, you will improve humanity as a whole. That's something worth attempting. If capacity becomes an issue, you could just add more tracks. If the cost is wrong (and it no doubt is), why is nobody coming up with the real cost so we can compare this properly? Hand waving about 'too low!' is only useful for arguing, not for finding a solution. Are there other ways that the cost could be brought down?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jfb 13y ago
Of course it's not delivering anybody from SF to LA as proposed; as proposed, with the putative cost of 6B, it will take you from Hayward to Sylmar in 35 minutes. Great, but the cost of getting from SF to Hayward or Sylmar to anyplace in the LA basin that anybody would want to go to are not included.
baddox 13y ago
Raw speed is obviously valuable, but it will always have to be balanced against construction/operation cost and passenger capacity.
tptacek 13y ago
It will not get you to SF from LA in 30 minutes. You have to get to Sylmar, which is a hike, then get through a security checkpoint; when you get to the other side, you have to drive from Hayward to San Francisco. HSR plans get around this by terminating in the middle of major metro areas, which they can do because they get to reuse existing rail lines.
- glenra 13y ago
  Trains don't need security checkpoints because trains follow a fixed route - you can't hijack them to cuba, you can't crash them into a building. All you can conceivably damage is the train line itself and the few people in it...and that sort of attack could be done almost as easily from OUTSIDE the train as from inside it.. Our impulse to PUT security checkpoints all over the place is idiotic. The TSA goons haven't won yet when it comes to subways and ski lifts and Amtrak and individual cars (as they enter tunnels or approach bridges) and we shouldn't assume they'll win on this one either.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    The idea that the Hyperloop would have airport-style security comes from Musk, not me.
mistercow 13y ago
>The hyperloop is actually something worth having as it will get you from SF to LA in 30 mins. Even if it costs more and takes less people than HSR, it's still far better than HSR for actually getting you between the two cities in the kind of time people would like. Not necessarily. It depends on demand. Think of travel time as latency, and volume as bandwidth. If the system is unsaturated, then the 30 minute travel time is great. You show up, get on, and ~30 minutes later you're at your destination. But if the system is saturated (which seems likely at $20/ticket), then latency becomes more or less irrelevant because you're limited by bandwidth. Sure, once you get on the car, you'll arrive in half an hour. But you will have to wait in line, and that wait will be determined by the volume limitations of the hyperloop. If the hyperloop attempts to serve the same demand as the proposed HSR, a passenger's total travel time will be four times as long. The solution is to charge more for a ticket. The actual price needs to be calculated in terms of a point where you don't end up with more than 3000 passengers per hour (at which point you break even). However, even if you do that, it doesn't as effectively solve other problems that the HSR will help with, like total car traffic.
- superuser2 13y ago
  Why would we create one of the most sophisticated transit systems in history and then use standing in a line as the method of reserving a space? Web-based reservation systems are not hard. Last-minute tickets could be sold at higher price for those that need and can afford them as well.
  - tptacek 13y ago
    You're not waiting in line for a ticket. You're waiting in line to get through security and to board the capsule. This is one of SWA's core optimization problems, and door-to-door times for SWA are still swamped by human-factor airport issues. You can't wave a web browser around as a magic wand to solve these problems.
    - superuser2 13y ago
      >and that wait will be determined by the volume limitations of the hyperloop This is what led me to believe he was talking about standing in line for a place in a capsule. Why is the wait for security determined by the volume limitations of the Hyperloop? Isn't that a function of demand, security lanes, and space to fill with waiting passengers?

by RyanZAG 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jfb 13y ago

Of course it's not delivering anybody from SF to LA as proposed; as proposed, with the putative cost of 6B, it will take you from Hayward to Sylmar in 35 minutes. Great, but the cost of getting from SF to Hayward or Sylmar to anyplace in the LA basin that anybody would want to go to are not included.

baddox 13y ago

Raw speed is obviously valuable, but it will always have to be balanced against construction/operation cost and passenger capacity.

tptacek 13y ago

It will not get you to SF from LA in 30 minutes. You have to get to Sylmar, which is a hike, then get through a security checkpoint; when you get to the other side, you have to drive from Hayward to San Francisco. HSR plans get around this by terminating in the middle of major metro areas, which they can do because they get to reuse existing rail lines.

glenra 13y ago
Trains don't need security checkpoints because trains follow a fixed route - you can't hijack them to cuba, you can't crash them into a building. All you can conceivably damage is the train line itself and the few people in it...and that sort of attack could be done almost as easily from OUTSIDE the train as from inside it.. Our impulse to PUT security checkpoints all over the place is idiotic. The TSA goons haven't won yet when it comes to subways and ski lifts and Amtrak and individual cars (as they enter tunnels or approach bridges) and we shouldn't assume they'll win on this one either.
- tptacek 13y ago
  The idea that the Hyperloop would have airport-style security comes from Musk, not me.

mistercow 13y ago

>The hyperloop is actually something worth having as it will get you from SF to LA in 30 mins. Even if it costs more and takes less people than HSR, it's still far better than HSR for actually getting you between the two cities in the kind of time people would like. Not necessarily. It depends on demand. Think of travel time as latency, and volume as bandwidth. If the system is unsaturated, then the 30 minute travel time is great. You show up, get on, and ~30 minutes later you're at your destination. But if the system is saturated (which seems likely at $20/ticket), then latency becomes more or less irrelevant because you're limited by bandwidth. Sure, once you get on the car, you'll arrive in half an hour. But you will have to wait in line, and that wait will be determined by the volume limitations of the hyperloop. If the hyperloop attempts to serve the same demand as the proposed HSR, a passenger's total travel time will be four times as long. The solution is to charge more for a ticket. The actual price needs to be calculated in terms of a point where you don't end up with more than 3000 passengers per hour (at which point you break even). However, even if you do that, it doesn't as effectively solve other problems that the HSR will help with, like total car traffic.

superuser2 13y ago
Why would we create one of the most sophisticated transit systems in history and then use standing in a line as the method of reserving a space? Web-based reservation systems are not hard. Last-minute tickets could be sold at higher price for those that need and can afford them as well.
- tptacek 13y ago
  You're not waiting in line for a ticket. You're waiting in line to get through security and to board the capsule. This is one of SWA's core optimization problems, and door-to-door times for SWA are still swamped by human-factor airport issues. You can't wave a web browser around as a magic wand to solve these problems.
  - superuser2 13y ago
    >and that wait will be determined by the volume limitations of the hyperloop This is what led me to believe he was talking about standing in line for a place in a capsule. Why is the wait for security determined by the volume limitations of the Hyperloop? Isn't that a function of demand, security lanes, and space to fill with waiting passengers?