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Groupon sales rep threatens restaurant with negative Yelp reviews
- stugs 13y agoI don't think Andy has a bright future in sales
- focus1 13y agohaha, definitely not
- Bmusk 13y agohttp://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco-2?sort_by=date_desc http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco-2?sort_by=date_d... (see Andy J's review)
- richadams 13y agoHe "reviewed" the other location too. http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco#hrid:-L6eTQeqhf5U8F-JNBrpDA http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco#hrid:-L6eTQeqhf5...
- benatkin 13y agoThis seems likely to be one of his friends. http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco#hrid:-tu5rIsfjQJq1BQ8zUtc7A http://www.yelp.com/biz/sauce-san-francisco#hrid:-tu5rIsfjQJ... Note that the health score is 83, and could be much worse, and that there were 5 other inspections before that, which were all over 90. http://www.yelp.com/inspections/sauce-san-francisco http://www.yelp.com/inspections/sauce-san-francisco
- benackles 13y agoYelp needs a "Useless" flag. All kidding aside, the fact that a reviewer has complete control to destroy a business reputation without any sort of accountability or credibility is wrong. There's nothing saying that Andy has ever physically visited this establishment. Of course a "Useless" flag would be useless itself because every active business owner would flag every negative review as "Useless".The unfortunate reality is that Yelp attracts only the worst in human emotions. In this case, it wasn't even related to the product or service.
- tdwiegand 13y agoMaybe pointed out elsewhere, but it looks like Andy J's Yelp Friend Stephan S was compelled to write a 1 star review on the same day. So it looks like he followed through with that. http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9kyw http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9k...
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoHuh. Stephan only has 1 friend. edit: Just noticed. I also have only one Yelp friend.
- robbiemitchell 13y agoArchive of his network of sock puppets here: http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=302346&Posts=4 http://www.crazyontap.com/topic.php?TopicId=302346&Posts=4
- usaphp 13y agohttp://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=hnH6RaPkJ2Tfw9ZkKMfLmg http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=hnH6RaPkJ2Tfw9ZkKMfL... see how many bad reviews he already wrote for Sause! I think his profile should be flagged, you can't trust a person who does this kind of things. Edit: He just changed his name to West C. what a guy :) Another Edit: Just look at his reviews date - they all are written on July 29-30 - why would anybody write so many reviews unless you receive a commission to do so?
- Irishsteve 13y agoSo I guess Negative reviews = No sale Positive review = Sale Indifferent review = ???
- ronilan 13y agoIndifferent review = actually went there. You should patent this: "a system and method to filter Yelp reviews based on Groupons offered in locale" :)
- rohamg 13y ago0xfe your account is dead. but your comment is accurate: > Interesting. He just got one of his cronies to write a review: http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9kyw http://www.yelp.com/user_details?userid=BfVinuuuFVCAr77TnI9k... I wonder how long it's going to take before he realizes he is fucked?
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- WarDekar 13y agoThe funny part of this is that if you look at his list of reviewed places he has a bunch from Chicago, IL, then the 2 for the 2 locations of Sauce in SF, then another place in Chicago on the SAME DAY. Now I know that you could wait to review places, but that certainly seems like a suspicious line. Also 2 of the 3 total reviews he's ever given a 1 star rating to are Sauce (out of 71 total reviews).
- droithomme 13y agoIsn't this a protection-money racket (extortion) from a legal perspective? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_racket > "Extortion is a criminal offense of unlawfully obtaining money, property, or services from a person, entity, or institution, through coercion." > "In the United States, extortion may also be committed as a federal crime across a computer system, phone, by mail or in using any instrument of interstate commerce." http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/what-difference-between-extortion-and-blackmail?page=all http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/business-career/legal/what-... > "What is Extortion? The use of threats to extract money from people is a crime in the United States..." > "Which Kinds of Threats are Illegal? One common characteristic of extortion is the use of threats, that is, an express intention to inflict injury, loss, or some other bad consequence on another person. The threat has to be sufficiently plausible and imminent that it could convince a reasonable person to give in to the blackmailer’s demands. In addition, there has to be some evidence that the threat was actually made for the purpose of obtaining money or property." http://www.orbankruptcy.com/newsletters/criminal-law/federal-laws-regarding-extortion/ http://www.orbankruptcy.com/newsletters/criminal-law/federal... > "A person commits the federal offense of extortion if he or she transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any demand or request for ransom or for a reward for the release of a kidnapped person, any threat to kidnap or injure another person, or any threat to injure the property or reputation of another person or to accuse another person of a crime with the intent to extort." Now that one specifically mentions that threats to injure persons, property or reputation qualify as extortion when done to get money from someone. Here is the actual federal law: http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/875 > "Whoever, with intent to extort from any person, firm, association, or corporation, any money or other thing of value, transmits in interstate or foreign commerce any communication containing any threat to injure the property or reputation of the addressee or of another or the reputation of a deceased person or any threat to accuse the addressee or any other person of a crime, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." It seems very clear that that is what has happened here. But if this form of threat by a Groupon employee to extract money from people is not extortion, what is the subtle difference that would enable such threats to be considered non-criminal?
- toble 13y agoSounds like one of those game theory side effects. If you pay and measure people by targets then expect them to use dubious techniques to win the game.
- nwh 13y agoMirrors for when the original content inexplicably disappears. Facebook post (OP's link): http://archive.is/lIFF5 http://archive.is/lIFF5 Negative reviews left: http://archive.is/js6nY http://archive.is/js6nY and http://archive.is/hnMmA http://archive.is/hnMmA The attackers reviews on Yelp: http://archive.is/Itdbw http://archive.is/Itdbw
- ulisesrmzroche 13y agoDang, they actually ARE carrying with that threat and giving them bad reviews? That's so messed up. I didn't think that'd actually happen. Hope this gets quelled quickly,but I'm bringing the popcorn and the lawnchair just in case.
- obstacle1 13y agoTo be fair, it doesn't look like they are doing much. Rather this Andy Johnston guy is going on a rampage to exact revenge for a perceived personal slight. I'd imagine Andy's actions expose his employer to many liabilities, but there's no indication that Groupon condones these actions thus far.
- ulisesrmzroche 13y agoI totally agree with ya'll. I'm not blaming Groupon, I should have been more specific when I said 'they'. I mean the kid and his (real?) buddies. I don't even think Groupon know what's going on right now since this is getting worse by the minute. I'm just saying they gotta hurry up because their customers are not blaming this dude, they're blaming them directly, and it seems to be spreading really fast. Some of those facebook comments have some real vitriol.
- hellturtle 13y agoCold callers seems to have similar (aggressive)attitude no matter where in the world you are, not just Groupon. But some industries are more affected than others...
- 13y ago
- PeterisP 13y agoDoesn't USA have any DoNotCall rules with some teeth, if, as the owner is saying, he "... asked you twice to remove me from you call list, as I have EVERY time I have been called by a representative from Groupon"? In my place, this would mean that their customer acquisition costs would skyrocket from fines for such incidents.
- loceng 13y agoClearly they don't care.
- PeterisP 13y agoWell, that is the whole point of functioning regulations - if someone doesn't care, then you simply bill them until they bleed and can't ignore it. If "don't care" is a reasonable option, then that particular DoNotCall regulation is defective by design.
- LogicX 13y agoAFAIK, there's an exemption if you've conducted business with someone, which it sounds like it's the case here (in the past). But sure how severed business relationships are handled.
- homosaur 13y agoIn many states you can be given a citation for soliciting people who have expressly told you not to.
- fiatmoney 13y agoHaven't checked, but it may not apply to businesses - I'd be surprised if a company could opt all of its phone numbers out of all potential vendor calls.
- qeorge 13y agoThat is correct. Do Not Call (the USA law) does not apply to businesses. We found a great remedy: answer their calls with a soundboard. We like the Mr. Rogers soundboard [1]. Its fun, harmless, and they'll stop calling very quickly. [1] http://www.ebaumsworld.com/soundboards/play/1866/ http://www.ebaumsworld.com/soundboards/play/1866/ (warning, autoplays some sounds)
- kitcar 13y agoI honestly don't know why this is even on the front page... It shouldn't surprise anyone that companies with thousands of low-paid roles are bound to sometimes end up with people which act unethically - we should be judging these companies based on how they deal with these employees, rather than the mere fact that these employees exist.
- nwh 13y agoSometimes? The person in question has pages and pages of reviews, all either gleaming positive or shocking poor. It's sort of telling how that company, or at least that individual, works. It's on the front page because the voters decided it should be.
- reustle 13y agoIt would be interesting to see a correlation between positive reviews and groupon relationships.
- seivan 13y agoLow paid? The sales collected six figure salaries, they are paid more than Engineers.
- radiusq 13y agoSource?
- lukejduncan 13y agoEngineers average less than 6 figures in a major city like Chicago?
- tripzilch 13y ago> I honestly don't > know why this is even on the front page... > It shouldn't surprise anyone that Yay! I just completed my HN-comment buzzword-bingo card!!
- tlogan 13y agoShouldn't this be Yelp's job?
- noonespecial 13y agoThere should be a yelp-like service for rating people like this "salesman" so that he doesn't accidentally get hired again.
- carbocation 13y agoThere are any number of reasons why service-people don't give their full names or unique identifying information over the phone; surely, this is one of them.
- cinquemb 13y agoWell here's a site… www.pictobar.com But I'm not sure if this is what you mean. I'm curious to how you think one can be quantified/qualified on a site to be useful to others.
- awjr 13y agoThe more interesting thing is, has any restaurant had a good experience with Groupon?
- infinitone 13y agoMore like- has any business had any? I would love to see how many times a business that tried groupon after the first time.
- mattmanser 13y agoWe've had quite a few people defend them on previous threads about groupon with really positive experiences. They have tended to be places like paintballing or sky diving, things where the cost doesn't go up that much more with the more people who come. And who can upsell (paintballs, photographs). There's a technical business term for those businesses that I can't remember. But apparently they do do well out of groupon.
- SoftwareMaven 13y agoService-oriented businesses tend to have positive experiences. Pretty much anything where you may have somebody sitting around 1/2 their time doing nothing, just to make sure you've got coverage during all of business hours. Any money you recoup from that 1/2 of the time is money in your pocket. Anything with inventory costs (e.g. restaurants) have a much harder time. Food costs are a significant portion of the cost of serving a table. It wouldn't be bad to have a loss-leader for one or two meals, but grouponers don't become "the next repeat customer", so you just lose money on the meals with not much to show.
- infinitone 13y agoSo would you say a carwash type business also make money off it? Cause they have inventory costs but also they are more service oriented?
- JohnTHaller 13y ago
- seivan 13y agoOn his LinkedIn account: "Specialties Technology, Local commerce, Social media, SEO, Online marketing, Consumer and retail marketing, Sales, Salesforce, CRM" How come every other scumbag tend to be everything above? Does it naturally attract these sorts of people? http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-johnston/41/81/119 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andy-johnston/41/81/119
- barking 13y agoI'm not American but I thought Berkeley was prestigious and yet this graduate's job is to cold call restaurants touting coupons. No wonder Andy's mad!
- seivan 13y agoPeople lie on their LinkedIn. You had one class at Berkeley or you interned as a Genius and you worked for Apple. LinkedIn is a massive circle jerk of buzzwords and whores recommending other whores.
- beedogs 13y agoHe's definitely only paying off the interest on all those student loans.
- auctiontheory 13y agoEven many Americans do not realize that Berkeley is a large state/public school, and has far less resources for undergrad education than "private" schools like MIT, Stanford, the "Ivy League," etc. As far as I can tell, Berkeley's prestige is largely historical, and largely based on the graduate programs, especially in science and engineering. Undergrad engineering programs are also well-respected. Andy should have majored in something other than "American Studies," whatever that is. Source: I went there.
- rorrr2 13y agoHis degree is in "American Studies, Business and American Culture". Cold calling seems like a good fit.
- 13y ago
- zackmorris 13y agoOn a related note, yelp's been criticized for similar practices: http://eater.com/archives/2013/01/23/ftc-complaints-about-yelp-allege-extortion-libel-more.php http://eater.com/archives/2013/01/23/ftc-complaints-about-ye...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ececconi 13y agoI wonder what this guys week will be like starting monday morning? Is this HN story going to do anything negative to his career?
- beedogs 13y agoGroupon is one good class-action lawsuit away from nonexistence. Here's hoping it comes sooner rather than later if this is the kind of tactic their salesmen need to resort to now.
- jseip 13y agoIf Groupon sales management gets wind of this Andy will be terminated immediately. I dealt with issues similar to this at LivingSocial (one rep offered a positive Yelp review in exchange for a deal) and both legal and sales know this is a very big no-no. Andy will have to re-learn business ethics at another company.
- darkchasma 13y ago> "I have a huge network of friends (ages 25-40) that all are extremely active on Yelp" Apparently, 10 people is a HUGE network.
- smsm42 13y agoIf he treats his friends like he treats his potential customers, 10 IS huge.
- nperez 13y agoThis story has had some interesting developments.. check the bottom of the comments. He has now changed his Yelp name and removed his profile pic. It was unprofessional from the start, but now it's getting really ridiculous.
- ultimoo 13y agoI don't like that this thread is fast turning into a reddit style witch-hunt.
- nosoc 13y agoAbsolutely. Random people have found his Yelp, Linkedin, Twitter, and Instagram. He also made the mistake of spelling out his name and detailed contact information on the letter. I know that his threat is stupid at best and harmful to Sauce's business at worst, but clearly he's young and inexperienced. Having hundreds (thousands?) of people discussing, criticizing, and examining your details online is terrible. I'm not too worried about posterity, because he has a very generic name, but it could have been much worse.
- taigeair 13y agoI guess this is the online equivalent of a reality show...
- jusben1369 13y agoHe's not saying "Use Groupon or I'll trash your business" he's saying "You treated me poorly and now I'll get my revenge" This guy's a goofball for putting it in writing but social media has definitely changed how businesses have to treat whacky, unreasonable prospect's and customers. (The Groupon angle is a red herring)
- ulisesrmzroche 13y agoI don't think the prospect was unreasonable at all. Hanging up happens all the time. It's whatever. The problem for Groupon is that this guy reps them. They need to explain to their customers fast what happened because this looks viral to me.
- jusben1369 13y agoOh right. Not defending the sales guy. Saying that all businesses are now vulnerable to social media attacks by folks by folks who in the past you could ignore. Should have been clearer.
- SimHacker 13y agoThe delicious irony is that HE was not only threatening but actually carrying out a social media attack himself.
- arbuge 13y agoQuite so. In the cold calling business people hanging up on you is par for the course...
- keithpeter 13y agoI see your point, but I have always assumed that sales people were selected for their ability to remain positive in the face of closed doors or hung-up phones. Seems like a necessary attribute!
- ww520 13y agoHe's using Groupon account to send out the email, with his signature tag on Groupon contact, business organization, and everything. For better or worse he was representing Groupon.
- BlakePetersen 13y agoAnyone who goes to Berkeley and majors in American Studies obviously has never heard 'No' before. Talk about a wasted opportunity. This guy has douche stink all over his various profiles.
- ChuckMcM 13y agoAnd this is why there is a high turn over rate in sales, seriously. The salesguy is clearly over the top aggressive and likely new to the business. He will get let go, if he hasn't been already, and some other person will replace him. If you deal with sales folks you will find the ones who have had the most success in their career seem to push right up to the line and don't cross it. This guy will no doubt re-calibrate and head back in selling windows or something. I expect it is the nature of sales, you measure someone on their completed sales, period. You don't measure anything else and they will experiment with different ways of maximizing that number, some of them illegal (see the behavior of the Google sales guys in Africa [1] as an example) Businesses fire the ones that generate ill will and keep the ones that don't. [1] http://memeburn.com/2012/01/mocality-scandal-mortified-google-confesses-apologises/ http://memeburn.com/2012/01/mocality-scandal-mortified-googl...
- danso 13y agoOn a tangent, how is this situation something that hasnt yet been hammered into Groupon's sales reps as something not to do? Say what you will about their business practices, but it's a savvy enough company with a young enough workforce that'd you would think they would have common sense in this kind of thing. In the day of Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook, even a nobody can generate a vicious defense against any company. Also common sense thing about the Internet: assume that whatever you send in email has the potential to be seen by everyone, for perpetuity. Hope this sales person was listing a Google Voice number
- inselkampf 13y agoIt appears he lives in Chicago yet he happened to visit TWO Sauce locations in SF on the same day.... this guy is unbelieveable
- radiusq 13y agoIf given the chance, how would Sauce submit these emails to Groupon's execs/managers/etc in a way that ensures the emails are in fact authentic and not made up by Sauce? Is there a procedure with the email provider to show authenticity?
- yelp_is_bad_too 13y agoPsst... Yelp salespeople have threatened restaurant owners that negative reviews would be more prominent (or could disappear if they "ran a deal" w/ them) Who knows if company policy, but cowboy/cowgirl sales reps are doing a fantastic job of burning goodwill
- potatolicious 13y agoSilly Groupon sales rep, everyone knows only Yelp sales reps are allowed to threaten restaurants with bad reviews!
- jasonkester 13y agoThis would be better titled "idiot gets himself fired (from Groupon)", since it's unlikely that Groupon has a policy of threatening their customers in writing, or much tolerance of employees who make it appear that they do. Incidentally, "As a resident of San Francisco for over 25 years" is code for "this is my first job out of college". Hopefully he'll be a little smarter by the time he finds his second.
- arbuge 13y agoIt is not good to have this story come up for the rest of your life whenever someone googles your name...
- SimHacker 13y agoAndy Johnston II GROUPON GETAWAYS Area Sales Manager ajohnston@groupon.com Desk: 312-462-9495 Cell: 5107033591 Groupon Getaways Apparently "Groupon Getaways" means that Groupon thinks they can get away with anything they want.
- polymathist 13y agoNot a good idea to publish the guy's cell number, regardless of what he's done.
- SimHacker 13y agoThat bell has already been rung, honey. That bell has already been rung. He's the one who published his personal cell phone number and office desk number in his written extortion letter, while acting as an official representative of Groupon, from his authentic Groupon email account. Not my problem. If you really want to get to the root of the problem, you might try cold calling his number, and advising HIM he shouldn't put his cell phone number in email when he sends threats to people. Maybe he'll hang up on you, and you might "sincerely appreciate him hanging up on you", just like he "sincerely appreciated" the owner of the restaurant doing that to him.
- stusmall 13y agoMy cell number is all over online. It took me all of about 5 min to find yours. Posting personal info here doesn't add to the conversation or help improve the situation. You are just inviting people to harass him.
- SimHacker 13y agoHe's inviting people to harass himself by being an extortionist, not by having his cell phone number online. Feel free to call me and I'll explain!
- npaquin 13y agoAndy Johnston II: All your base are belong to the internet.
- pearjuice 13y agoI always thought HN was full of professional people so it ashames me to see a full blown witch hunt going on in this thread. Posting the guy his address, Twitter and so forth? Mirroring his Instagram profile? Really? Has it come to this?
- josteink 13y agoTo put this internet witch-hunt in perspective I know about 0 persons who care about either groupon or yelp. An offer from groupon would be spam to me and an opinion on yelp wouldn't be seen because nobody I know uses it.
- SimHacker 13y agoYou should get out more, and make some friends.
- mathattack 13y agoAll I can say is Wow! To say something like this on the phone is crazy, and something to get fired over. To put it in writing is a career ender. Any company that does background checks will not hire someone like this. Absolutely amazing.
- dvhh 13y agoWhile I agree the guy is a scum and deserve a good kick in the ball, I feel that people here (even me including to some degree) condone what we are criticizing the NSA for. I also agree that this behavior is also destroying not only whatever remains of groupon reputation, but is also hurting Yelp as well (which should detect this kind of abuse but wont , because an inflated number of reviews is more trusted than a few verified ones).