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The problem is that the flip-side consequence is dead-end job prospects. It's a greater of two evils - have a disproportionate lack or opportunity or debt. De

by Zimahl 13y ago

The problem is that the flip-side consequence is dead-end job prospects. It's a greater of two evils - have a disproportionate lack or opportunity or debt. Debt is the easy choice. The only thing kids need to consider is return on investment. A heap-load of debt will rarely get paid off with a humanities or communications degree.

ebiester 13y ago
Every time this comes up... Every time, people have to be reminded that few people start out in communications degrees. Someone makes it to college, trying pre-med. Then they realize that, while not failing, they do not have the grades to make it into medical school, and they don't have an aptitude for the sciences. So, if they quit at this point, they will have no degree and 20k of debt. The marginal cost:benefit analysis for a social sciences degree is high. We talk about sunk cost fallacies, but the risk profile looks like this: drop out | 20,000 in debt, 2% chance of job that can pay it off, and a soft limit on class mobility. continue in social sciences | 60,000 in debt, 35% chance of job that can pay it off, and a better chance of staying in the middle class over a career. I see my sister run into this. She can't advance in her career because she made the decision to drop out. She is intelligent enough to finish a social sciences degree, and intelligent enough to do the work of a college graduate, but she is filtered out of many jobs because of the requirement. ___ Full disclosure: I have a communications degree (CS minor) and am a developer and am not ashamed to say I've used my communication degree to my advantage as a programmer. What I learned about organizational communication and conflict management have helped solve problems.
- Zimahl 13y ago
  It's great that you've used your communications studies in your career but you didn't have to get a communications degree to learn that. I feel that the anthropology, communications, biology, history, etc. classes I took in college were great and really opened my eyes to other things. However, I didn't pursue degrees in them because I knew it probably wasn't a good ROI (investment being time and money).
  - ebiester 13y ago
    In my case, I had a bad semester where life crashed around me right before finals, which included two of the classes I needed to have a minimum GPA for admittance into the CS program. I had the option of losing a semester and retaking everything again, of course, but at the same time I had been involved with speech and debate during high school and loved the communications classes I was taking. It worked out for me. If I hadn't had the option, I could have retaken a few math classes and been fine. I could have made it, but I return to the question: what happens when people aren't cut out for STEM? Do you charge 20k and say "thanks for trying,?"
    - Zimahl 13y ago
      Certainly not and I'm not downplaying the importance of liberal arts degrees, it's just that right now their ROI is terrible. Unless you go to a private school, state schools should never cost $20k per year - ever. I can't believe my alma mater costs $9k + room/board per year, it's not worth it for even STEM. The only solution is bringing costs down. Plain and simple. If a majority of students can't pay for in-state college alone or with help from family the system is not working as intended. EDIT: butchered that last sentence by missing one word (now in italics)
driverdan 13y ago
False dichotomy. Just because you don't go to college doesn't mean you'll be stuck in a dead end job.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

by Zimahl 13y ago

ebiester 13y ago

Every time this comes up... Every time, people have to be reminded that few people start out in communications degrees. Someone makes it to college, trying pre-med. Then they realize that, while not failing, they do not have the grades to make it into medical school, and they don't have an aptitude for the sciences. So, if they quit at this point, they will have no degree and 20k of debt. The marginal cost:benefit analysis for a social sciences degree is high. We talk about sunk cost fallacies, but the risk profile looks like this: drop out | 20,000 in debt, 2% chance of job that can pay it off, and a soft limit on class mobility. continue in social sciences | 60,000 in debt, 35% chance of job that can pay it off, and a better chance of staying in the middle class over a career. I see my sister run into this. She can't advance in her career because she made the decision to drop out. She is intelligent enough to finish a social sciences degree, and intelligent enough to do the work of a college graduate, but she is filtered out of many jobs because of the requirement. ___ Full disclosure: I have a communications degree (CS minor) and am a developer and am not ashamed to say I've used my communication degree to my advantage as a programmer. What I learned about organizational communication and conflict management have helped solve problems.

Zimahl 13y ago
It's great that you've used your communications studies in your career but you didn't have to get a communications degree to learn that. I feel that the anthropology, communications, biology, history, etc. classes I took in college were great and really opened my eyes to other things. However, I didn't pursue degrees in them because I knew it probably wasn't a good ROI (investment being time and money).
- ebiester 13y ago
  In my case, I had a bad semester where life crashed around me right before finals, which included two of the classes I needed to have a minimum GPA for admittance into the CS program. I had the option of losing a semester and retaking everything again, of course, but at the same time I had been involved with speech and debate during high school and loved the communications classes I was taking. It worked out for me. If I hadn't had the option, I could have retaken a few math classes and been fine. I could have made it, but I return to the question: what happens when people aren't cut out for STEM? Do you charge 20k and say "thanks for trying,?"
  - Zimahl 13y ago
    Certainly not and I'm not downplaying the importance of liberal arts degrees, it's just that right now their ROI is terrible. Unless you go to a private school, state schools should never cost $20k per year - ever. I can't believe my alma mater costs $9k + room/board per year, it's not worth it for even STEM. The only solution is bringing costs down. Plain and simple. If a majority of students can't pay for in-state college alone or with help from family the system is not working as intended. EDIT: butchered that last sentence by missing one word (now in italics)

driverdan 13y ago

False dichotomy. Just because you don't go to college doesn't mean you'll be stuck in a dead end job.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]