8 ms·

I can't stomach the guy. He was an abusive drunk who thought it was funny to kick women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0 http://www.youtube.com/watc

I can't stomach the guy. He was an abusive drunk who thought it was funny to kick women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0

eshvk 13y ago
What is it that you find offensive? The part that he was a drunk? The part that he kicked another human being? The part that he kicked a woman? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked women? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked a man? Side opinion: If you consume content only by people who are perfect (which really means follow your ethical system, your values), your content sources are going to be incredibly narrow. Also, because I have to make it crystal clear. I am not advocating kicking anyone. I just think that him committing something that I disagree with doesn't necessarily mean that his ideas aren't worth thinking about.
- stdbrouw 13y ago
  > What is it that you find offensive? The part that he was a drunk? The part that he kicked another human being? The part that he kicked a woman? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked women? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked a man? Are your questions anything other than pointlessly flippant?
  - ionwake 13y ago
    I dont think I like you
sspiff 13y ago
I'm not saying what he's doing is OK, but do we know the context of this?
mkrecny 13y ago
I watched that. Here's my take: Fiance: I am and will continue to sleep with other men. Bukowski: You fing w*re [kicks]. Relationships are hard. While I don't agree with physical or verbal abuse, I think in this case Fiance probably hurt Bukowski more with her words than he did with his kick. It certainly didn't seem like he was kicking her because he "thought it was funny to kick women".
- mkrecny 13y ago
  Reason for downvote?
  - lotsofcows 13y ago
    Apparently it's acceptable to downvote without providing an argument. It's anonymous and requires no thought so it's very popular.
    - sz4kerto 13y ago
      No, just there are people who understand why physical abuse and violence is not tolerable in _any_ situation, especially not against the weak. People who equate physical and verbal violence (by verbal violence I mean anything not physical) either have no idea what they're talking about or they're mentally ill.
      - mkrecny 13y ago
        I agree, physical and verbal violence should not be equated. But not because verbal violence is clearly less damaging than physical violence. It's complicated, and subjective and different for everyone. I'm totally against _any_ type of violence. But I've met and studied enough people who carry around a lifetime of mental illnesses caused verbal violence (esp. at a young age) to be able to say that one is worse than the other.
      - madaxe 13y ago
        Yes, and those people are the same folks who give women who are violent or abusive to men a free pass, as women can't be violent against men as men are so much stronger than women.
- king_jester 13y ago
  > While I don't agree with physical or verbal abuse, I think in this case Fiance probably hurt Bukowski more with her words than he did with his kick. So you do agree with physical abuse. According to you, if your partner says something that upsets you, its totally OK to hit them. That is domestic abuse 101.
Lewton 13y ago
His quality as a human being has no impact on his quality as a writer. The guy was a genius and an all out asshole
- tankbot 13y ago
  Agreed. Succinctly put.
ra88it 13y ago
And then somebody reduces the man to this awful youtube clip where he's drunk and fighting with his fiancé, where he kicks her meanly from across the couch, several times. And I have to remember: that's just this thread, this thread will pass. It's Friday. I'm in a decent mood. Let's find something to eat, start thinking about what I will work on today.
- tankbot 13y ago
  Yeah Friday. It's Bagel day! But this crap still bothers me. It drags an otherwise nice discussion about good art into the gutter of reactionary judgements. A lot of really good artists had/have problems, but that doesn't discount their work.
- newnewnew 13y ago
  Every argument is ad hominem nowadays. It is the sickness of the post-modern era[1]. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. Charles Bukowski kicked a woman. Paula Dean once used a racial slur referring to a man that robbed her at gunpoint. Leonidas probably opposed women in the military. Let's throw out all of human history and art and listen to the pious, sniveling PC morons of the last 10 years. That is the modern world for ya. [1] http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~kwesthue/regiftedxmas12.html http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~kwesthue/regiftedxmas12.html
  - badman_ting 13y ago
    > Every argument is ad hominem nowadays. Careful... http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html
    - qu4z-2 13y ago
      In fairness, the form Thomas Jefferson said that [some well reasoned argument or opinion] Yeah, but Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. [and thus we shouldn't consider his argument] is pretty clearly ad hominem.
tankbot 13y ago
So you have to like everything about a person in order to appreciate their art? I never realized this was a prerequisite, thanks for clearing that up. You do realize that this ignorant, reactionary stance invalidates the work of practically everyone ever, yes? EDIT: If you're going to downvote someone's comment please have the guts to make an argument.
obstacle1 13y ago
>...women. Would it be more tolerable to you if he were kicking a man?

I can't stomach the guy. He was an abusive drunk who thought it was funny to kick women. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8KJiay6EI0

eshvk 13y ago

What is it that you find offensive? The part that he was a drunk? The part that he kicked another human being? The part that he kicked a woman? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked women? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked a man? Side opinion: If you consume content only by people who are perfect (which really means follow your ethical system, your values), your content sources are going to be incredibly narrow. Also, because I have to make it crystal clear. I am not advocating kicking anyone. I just think that him committing something that I disagree with doesn't necessarily mean that his ideas aren't worth thinking about.

stdbrouw 13y ago
> What is it that you find offensive? The part that he was a drunk? The part that he kicked another human being? The part that he kicked a woman? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked women? Would you have been OK if he was sober but kicked a man? Are your questions anything other than pointlessly flippant?
- ionwake 13y ago
  I dont think I like you

sspiff 13y ago

I'm not saying what he's doing is OK, but do we know the context of this?

mkrecny 13y ago

I watched that. Here's my take: Fiance: I am and will continue to sleep with other men. Bukowski: You fing w*re [kicks]. Relationships are hard. While I don't agree with physical or verbal abuse, I think in this case Fiance probably hurt Bukowski more with her words than he did with his kick. It certainly didn't seem like he was kicking her because he "thought it was funny to kick women".

mkrecny 13y ago
Reason for downvote?
- lotsofcows 13y ago
  Apparently it's acceptable to downvote without providing an argument. It's anonymous and requires no thought so it's very popular.
  - sz4kerto 13y ago
    No, just there are people who understand why physical abuse and violence is not tolerable in _any_ situation, especially not against the weak. People who equate physical and verbal violence (by verbal violence I mean anything not physical) either have no idea what they're talking about or they're mentally ill.
    - mkrecny 13y ago
      I agree, physical and verbal violence should not be equated. But not because verbal violence is clearly less damaging than physical violence. It's complicated, and subjective and different for everyone. I'm totally against _any_ type of violence. But I've met and studied enough people who carry around a lifetime of mental illnesses caused verbal violence (esp. at a young age) to be able to say that one is worse than the other.
    - madaxe 13y ago
      Yes, and those people are the same folks who give women who are violent or abusive to men a free pass, as women can't be violent against men as men are so much stronger than women.
king_jester 13y ago
> While I don't agree with physical or verbal abuse, I think in this case Fiance probably hurt Bukowski more with her words than he did with his kick. So you do agree with physical abuse. According to you, if your partner says something that upsets you, its totally OK to hit them. That is domestic abuse 101.

Lewton 13y ago

His quality as a human being has no impact on his quality as a writer. The guy was a genius and an all out asshole

tankbot 13y ago
Agreed. Succinctly put.

ra88it 13y ago

And then somebody reduces the man to this awful youtube clip where he's drunk and fighting with his fiancé, where he kicks her meanly from across the couch, several times. And I have to remember: that's just this thread, this thread will pass. It's Friday. I'm in a decent mood. Let's find something to eat, start thinking about what I will work on today.

tankbot 13y ago
Yeah Friday. It's Bagel day! But this crap still bothers me. It drags an otherwise nice discussion about good art into the gutter of reactionary judgements. A lot of really good artists had/have problems, but that doesn't discount their work.
newnewnew 13y ago
Every argument is ad hominem nowadays. It is the sickness of the post-modern era[1]. Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. Charles Bukowski kicked a woman. Paula Dean once used a racial slur referring to a man that robbed her at gunpoint. Leonidas probably opposed women in the military. Let's throw out all of human history and art and listen to the pious, sniveling PC morons of the last 10 years. That is the modern world for ya. [1] http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~kwesthue/regiftedxmas12.html http://arts.uwaterloo.ca/~kwesthue/regiftedxmas12.html
- badman_ting 13y ago
  > Every argument is ad hominem nowadays. Careful... http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html
  - qu4z-2 13y ago
    In fairness, the form Thomas Jefferson said that [some well reasoned argument or opinion] Yeah, but Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner. [and thus we shouldn't consider his argument] is pretty clearly ad hominem.

tankbot 13y ago

So you have to like everything about a person in order to appreciate their art? I never realized this was a prerequisite, thanks for clearing that up. You do realize that this ignorant, reactionary stance invalidates the work of practically everyone ever, yes? EDIT: If you're going to downvote someone's comment please have the guts to make an argument.

obstacle1 13y ago

>...women. Would it be more tolerable to you if he were kicking a man?