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....and most people don't care with what the NSA is doing so let's move on with this NSA thingy and submit more interesting technology news so that we all can b

by jister 13y ago

....and most people don't care with what the NSA is doing so let's move on with this NSA thingy and submit more interesting technology news so that we all can be happy, no?

D9u 13y ago
No! To allow these abrogations of our civil rights to go unpunished equates to tacit approval, and I, for one, absolutely refuse to let this matter rest until the violations cease and those responsible are duly punished to the full extent of the law. Secret courts handing down secret rulings regarding secret police is not something one would expect of a nation which claims "moral high ground" when justifying their breach of the public trust on multiple fronts. Some of us swore an Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, and we take our vows with deadly seriousness. I'll see myself rot in some prison before I allow this situation to be shuffled off the collective radar.
- davidw 13y ago
  > I, for one, absolutely refuse to let this matter rest So what are you doing about it? > I allow this situation to be shuffled off the collective radar. Voting up articles about the issue on a niche news site is not "doing something".
  - D9u 13y ago
    Implying that I haven't been firing off letters to my elected representatives is an erroneous assumption on your part. Keeping this issue alive and at the forefront of the collective mindset is doing something.
    - davidw 13y ago
      > Implying that I haven't been firing off letters to my elected representatives is an erroneous assumption on your part. I didn't assume that, I asked. > Keeping this issue alive and at the forefront of the collective mindset is doing something. Not really. Everyone here knows about the issue and has an opinion about it already. I would really hope that, like you, most of us have acted on it (I called mine rather than writing), but it's a pretty small group, all things considered, and basically an echo chamber for issues like this. To really do something, people need to "get out of the building", to borrow a phrase.
    - glitchdout 13y ago
      Sending letters... You Americans should be on the fucking streets! I'm sorry, I'm in a bad mood. As an European, all I can do is upvote these articles and donate to the EFF...
  - PavlovsCat 13y ago
    So what are you doing about it? A lot more than someone saying "let's not talk about this", that's for fucking sure. Voting up articles about the issue on a niche news site is not "doing something". And answering to your own post isn't really "making a point". Who claimed that's enough? Who claimed it's even a lot? How is it not better than neither doing something, nor talking about the problem?
    - davidw 13y ago
      > A lot more than someone saying "let's not talk about this", that's for fucking sure. jister was obviously being sarcastic. In kind of a facile way, I suppose, but I guess it went completely over people's heads. > How is it not better than neither doing something, nor talking about the problem? Because it apparently lulls some people into thinking they have done something meaningful. Talking about it endlessly here accomplishes two things: jack, and shit.
      - pessimizer 13y ago
        >Talking about it endlessly here accomplishes two things: jack, and shit. This is absolutely untrue. The longer it is kept in the public consciousness, outside of a government frame, the better. Talking about it with your grandmother is useful.
        davidw 13y ago
        > public consciousness HN is not the "public consciousness".
        ertdfgcb 13y ago
        This is obviously anecdotal, but hopefully it is an example of how discussion here can have a positive influence: Before I started reading about it on HN, my opinion of the NSA scandal wasn't much more complex than "it's bad". Sure I had some reasons (right to privacy, violation of the constitution, etc), but my thinking was basically "I already knew government is a bunch of dicks, and there was that AT&T thing a while back, so this isn't even anything new, it'll probably just blow over in a couple of days". Obviously, it didn't, and as I kept reading the discussions, I found myself caring about this thing more and more - I never really talked about the news with my friends, but the discussion on HN gave me a reason to; before, if I talked about the news with them, it was a one time thing - none of us read more than the article, so we only had our own insights to discuss. But the discussion on HN gave me (and them) a much broader view. It hadn't even occurred to me that this could be used by terrorists against us - until I read a comment here. As for real action, I have written my congressfolks about this, and I know 2 other people who have done the same because of discussions we had. Again, this is anecdotal, I (and/or my friends) might be a exception, but I hope you can understand that even though HN is obviously not the "public consciousness", discussion here can influence people who would never have otherwise cared. (Of course if you were just diffusing the "We're such a important and powerful part of the world" type of attitude that seems prevalent on reddit and seems to be implied by pessimizer's comment, go for it)
marshray 13y ago
Aside from our moral duty to stand up for Freedom and Western Democracy when it is threatened, consider how bad it is for the startup ecosystem to have the entire world of potential users (including those in the US) perpetually doubting the integrity of our jurisdictional and technical data protection systems.

by jister 13y ago

....and most people don't care with what the NSA is doing so let's move on with this NSA thingy and submit more interesting technology news so that we all can be happy, no?

D9u 13y ago

No! To allow these abrogations of our civil rights to go unpunished equates to tacit approval, and I, for one, absolutely refuse to let this matter rest until the violations cease and those responsible are duly punished to the full extent of the law. Secret courts handing down secret rulings regarding secret police is not something one would expect of a nation which claims "moral high ground" when justifying their breach of the public trust on multiple fronts. Some of us swore an Oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States, and we take our vows with deadly seriousness. I'll see myself rot in some prison before I allow this situation to be shuffled off the collective radar.

davidw 13y ago
> I, for one, absolutely refuse to let this matter rest So what are you doing about it? > I allow this situation to be shuffled off the collective radar. Voting up articles about the issue on a niche news site is not "doing something".
- D9u 13y ago
  Implying that I haven't been firing off letters to my elected representatives is an erroneous assumption on your part. Keeping this issue alive and at the forefront of the collective mindset is doing something.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > Implying that I haven't been firing off letters to my elected representatives is an erroneous assumption on your part. I didn't assume that, I asked. > Keeping this issue alive and at the forefront of the collective mindset is doing something. Not really. Everyone here knows about the issue and has an opinion about it already. I would really hope that, like you, most of us have acted on it (I called mine rather than writing), but it's a pretty small group, all things considered, and basically an echo chamber for issues like this. To really do something, people need to "get out of the building", to borrow a phrase.
  - glitchdout 13y ago
    Sending letters... You Americans should be on the fucking streets! I'm sorry, I'm in a bad mood. As an European, all I can do is upvote these articles and donate to the EFF...
- PavlovsCat 13y ago
  So what are you doing about it? A lot more than someone saying "let's not talk about this", that's for fucking sure. Voting up articles about the issue on a niche news site is not "doing something". And answering to your own post isn't really "making a point". Who claimed that's enough? Who claimed it's even a lot? How is it not better than neither doing something, nor talking about the problem?
  - davidw 13y ago
    > A lot more than someone saying "let's not talk about this", that's for fucking sure. jister was obviously being sarcastic. In kind of a facile way, I suppose, but I guess it went completely over people's heads. > How is it not better than neither doing something, nor talking about the problem? Because it apparently lulls some people into thinking they have done something meaningful. Talking about it endlessly here accomplishes two things: jack, and shit.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      >Talking about it endlessly here accomplishes two things: jack, and shit. This is absolutely untrue. The longer it is kept in the public consciousness, outside of a government frame, the better. Talking about it with your grandmother is useful.
      - davidw 13y ago
        > public consciousness HN is not the "public consciousness".
        ertdfgcb 13y ago
        This is obviously anecdotal, but hopefully it is an example of how discussion here can have a positive influence: Before I started reading about it on HN, my opinion of the NSA scandal wasn't much more complex than "it's bad". Sure I had some reasons (right to privacy, violation of the constitution, etc), but my thinking was basically "I already knew government is a bunch of dicks, and there was that AT&T thing a while back, so this isn't even anything new, it'll probably just blow over in a couple of days". Obviously, it didn't, and as I kept reading the discussions, I found myself caring about this thing more and more - I never really talked about the news with my friends, but the discussion on HN gave me a reason to; before, if I talked about the news with them, it was a one time thing - none of us read more than the article, so we only had our own insights to discuss. But the discussion on HN gave me (and them) a much broader view. It hadn't even occurred to me that this could be used by terrorists against us - until I read a comment here. As for real action, I have written my congressfolks about this, and I know 2 other people who have done the same because of discussions we had. Again, this is anecdotal, I (and/or my friends) might be a exception, but I hope you can understand that even though HN is obviously not the "public consciousness", discussion here can influence people who would never have otherwise cared. (Of course if you were just diffusing the "We're such a important and powerful part of the world" type of attitude that seems prevalent on reddit and seems to be implied by pessimizer's comment, go for it)

marshray 13y ago

Aside from our moral duty to stand up for Freedom and Western Democracy when it is threatened, consider how bad it is for the startup ecosystem to have the entire world of potential users (including those in the US) perpetually doubting the integrity of our jurisdictional and technical data protection systems.