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What this suggests is that "await" isn't like all structured programming, it's like one control construct. The history of structured programming is the develop

by blahedo 13y ago

What this suggests is that "await" isn't like all structured programming, it's like one control construct. The history of structured programming is the development of more constructs as people realised that they had a goto pattern that kept popping up in their code, so they named it and thereby got a cognitively-higher-level program. Long after Dijkstra's essay, we could still occasionally find new places where goto was really the best way to do it: for instance, if you wanted to "break" out of multiple loops at once. So someone invented named break (likewise continue), and removed yet another use of the unconstrained goto in favour of a more constrained, structured construct. Taking the OP's premise at face value, then, if callbacks are like goto, then await takes away one place where they were needed and replaces them with something more structured and safer---and this doesn't at all negate the possibility that there are other constructs yet to be invented that would continue that process.

sirmarksalot 13y ago
Another example: a lot of old code bases use "goto" for error handling. I'm assuming the Linux kernel still does this. Now we've formalized that behavior into exceptions.
- anonymous 13y ago
  You need C++'s RAII idiom or go's defer syntax to get the same behaviour though. I think try-with-resource in Java also would do the same thing, maybe. Just plainly throwing an exception won't release what you've acquired.
  - qznc 13y ago
    Something like go's defer makes most uses of goto (failure handling) unnecessary. However, there is still the "code a state machine" use case for goto.
    - loumf 13y ago
      Which we are trying to eliminate with tail-call-optimized mutually recursive functions.
      - klodolph 13y ago
        Which are semantically less clear than goto, when you are working with something that is semantically a state machine.
        dragonwriter 13y ago
        Actually, I think that mutually-recursive functions are more semantically clear than goto for a state machine, though using explicit state objects is even more clear than either (though probably less efficient.)
  - stcredzero 13y ago
    ensure: blocks were how it was done in Smalltalk. You simply had a block of code that was followed by another block of code that the system would ensure the execution of. There was slightly more to it. You had to make sure that whatever ran in that block wouldn't take too long to complete, for example.
- thedamhattter 13y ago
  Formalized that behavior into exceptions? Last I checked using exceptions for control flow was a BAD practice. In c at least, breaking out of an error condition is still best handled with a goto (where you can clean up all matter of memory in an organized fashion without littering your code with if elses).
  - sirmarksalot 13y ago
    This discussion sort of hinges on being able to explain why something is a bad practice or not. What problems in particular do exceptions cause, and in which situations do they not apply? In other words, is it ever right to throw an exception, or is every line of code in your program "control flow?" It's been nearly a decade since I've used plain C, so I'm not 100% sure, but I was under the impression that it doesn't have any native support for exceptions. So yes, under those circumstances "goto" would definitely be appropriate. In C#, you can implement resource ownership with the IDisposable interface and "using" keyword, which guarantees that once you leave the block (via an exception or regular control flow), the resource is cleaned up. In C++, you can use the RAII pattern that another commenter brought up. What other problems do exceptions introduce? In my as-functional-as-is-practical programming philosophy, you throw an exception when there is no valid output for your function. Whether or not that's recoverable is up to the client to decide. Nulls are an extremely poor substitute for this, as they push the responsibility of output validation onto the client, and every single line of code must be enclosed in an "if (foo != null)" block. EDIT: Removed unproductive "zinger" at end.

by blahedo 13y ago

sirmarksalot 13y ago

Another example: a lot of old code bases use "goto" for error handling. I'm assuming the Linux kernel still does this. Now we've formalized that behavior into exceptions.

anonymous 13y ago
You need C++'s RAII idiom or go's defer syntax to get the same behaviour though. I think try-with-resource in Java also would do the same thing, maybe. Just plainly throwing an exception won't release what you've acquired.
- qznc 13y ago
  Something like go's defer makes most uses of goto (failure handling) unnecessary. However, there is still the "code a state machine" use case for goto.
  - loumf 13y ago
    Which we are trying to eliminate with tail-call-optimized mutually recursive functions.
    - klodolph 13y ago
      Which are semantically less clear than goto, when you are working with something that is semantically a state machine.
      - dragonwriter 13y ago
        Actually, I think that mutually-recursive functions are more semantically clear than goto for a state machine, though using explicit state objects is even more clear than either (though probably less efficient.)
- stcredzero 13y ago
  ensure: blocks were how it was done in Smalltalk. You simply had a block of code that was followed by another block of code that the system would ensure the execution of. There was slightly more to it. You had to make sure that whatever ran in that block wouldn't take too long to complete, for example.
thedamhattter 13y ago
Formalized that behavior into exceptions? Last I checked using exceptions for control flow was a BAD practice. In c at least, breaking out of an error condition is still best handled with a goto (where you can clean up all matter of memory in an organized fashion without littering your code with if elses).
- sirmarksalot 13y ago
  This discussion sort of hinges on being able to explain why something is a bad practice or not. What problems in particular do exceptions cause, and in which situations do they not apply? In other words, is it ever right to throw an exception, or is every line of code in your program "control flow?" It's been nearly a decade since I've used plain C, so I'm not 100% sure, but I was under the impression that it doesn't have any native support for exceptions. So yes, under those circumstances "goto" would definitely be appropriate. In C#, you can implement resource ownership with the IDisposable interface and "using" keyword, which guarantees that once you leave the block (via an exception or regular control flow), the resource is cleaned up. In C++, you can use the RAII pattern that another commenter brought up. What other problems do exceptions introduce? In my as-functional-as-is-practical programming philosophy, you throw an exception when there is no valid output for your function. Whether or not that's recoverable is up to the client to decide. Nulls are an extremely poor substitute for this, as they push the responsibility of output validation onto the client, and every single line of code must be enclosed in an "if (foo != null)" block. EDIT: Removed unproductive "zinger" at end.