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Reading the comments here... wow, HN must be a depressing place for people who create things. I feel sorry for the author.

dictum 13y ago
As someone who gave depressing feedback, I'd like to defend my actions: I've learned that attention is more important than appreciation. When you introduce a project, it's better to get people thinking about it, nitpicking and even questioning the point of your project, than to get a few replies of "Nice!" and be ignored in the long term. I've noticed another thing: most things of which I'm initially slightly dismissive fail to reach any success, but the things I'm very dismissive succeed. I've seen products get very harsh feedback and, a few months later, the products were successful, had better user experiences, and their users loved them. But the visceral reaction to his project may have to do with the kind of expectations we have from web use vs. installed software. I know some people install anything they happen by, and will try all one-line command line installs and random .pkgs they find, but most people who care about security are wary of installing closed source software from a not-very-known third party, or run arbitrary code in a virtual machine. When you browse the web, there's an expectation of not worrying about security and malicious code execution. Javascript blurs that line, but it's mostly kept away from the innards of the host. Installed software is more intimate; in some ways, it's like letting a stranger into your kitchen, but not into into your bedroom. Of course, they can do harm in the kitchen too, but the bedroom has implications that go beyond physical access. HN can be very negative sometimes, and seeing angry or snide comments makes me sad too. You can give concrete, actionable advice and feedback without being an asshole, and no, that's not pretending to be nice, it's simply not going out of your way to be rude. But if you take everything into account, it's better to get discouraging comments from HN and filter them for real information than to be ignored.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  I think you may be right with the idea that lot's of negative feedback may be good in a way, interesting observation. I think one of the main reasons why projects like Arc or NaCl started is that the web is that the web is not a very good platform. It was created as a platform for documents, not for apps. I wish there was a platform having advantages of both web and native platforms (Windows, Linux, Android, etc.).
enraged_camel 13y ago
If we have learned one thing from people like Elon Musk, it is to continue to do what you believe in despite all the naysayers. I hope the author continues working on the project.
mchannon 13y ago
I've seen him demo the product, and text just doesn't do it justice. It's awe-inspiring and I'm glad he finally decided it was ready for its admiring public (got worried there). I'd pay no mind to the naysayers; that internet thing was pretty dangerously insecure at first too. A 3-minute video demo (with no editing) is all Arthur needs to get the point across that this is the next big thing. Show the public what I've seen.
area51org 13y ago
I noticed, some two years ago, the tide turning. "Show HN" posts became painful to read; instead of mostly constructive criticism, most or all comments were angry and hypercritical. It's been sad to watch.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  Unfortunately, HN is a monopoly in its niche, I don't see a good alternative.
  - area51org 13y ago
    The only one I know of is lobste.rs, which is all fine and good if you know someone and can get an invite — without one, you're stuck in read-only mode. No idea why they'd make a decision like that. I like HN for its news, but am not so sure about its moderation policies, muchless the sometimes-hypercritical attitudes.
ma2rten 13y ago
I currently live in Thailand. This country may be the most polite in the world. In some situations Thais will never give you honest feedback [1]. For instance, they may give you compliments on how well you speak their language - regardless how well you actually speak it. Just to make you feel good. And (to some degree) they expect you to do the same. In this culture you never quite know what people really think. Hacker News is the opposite. You will get (mostly) constructive feedback from (mostly) smart people for free, that you could not get elsewhere if you were to pay money for it. Don't come here to stroke you ego. That said, if you get positive feedback you know it is for real and not just out of politeness. Sometimes however, people could package their criticism a little bit better or self-censor if it's not constructive. [1] I don't claim to understand Thai culture. In some cases I may be the extreme opposite. Where sometimes people say things to each other that would be considered outright insulting in the West to strangers.
- RivieraKid 13y ago
  That's a very good point. I recently realized that this bothers me too, especially in business - for example the appointment can be very polite and positive and they then just send a brief message saying that they've chosen someone else for the project without giving any reasons. And I don't even live in an especially polite country (Czech Republic) :) But: * I don't think total honesty is always the best amount of honesty, in some situations it's better to twist the truth slightly. I see it as a tradoff between honesty and politeness. * You can be honest in many different ways. I agree that some of the comments here could be rewritten to be less depressing for the author while staying honest.

dictum 13y ago

As someone who gave depressing feedback, I'd like to defend my actions: I've learned that attention is more important than appreciation. When you introduce a project, it's better to get people thinking about it, nitpicking and even questioning the point of your project, than to get a few replies of "Nice!" and be ignored in the long term. I've noticed another thing: most things of which I'm initially slightly dismissive fail to reach any success, but the things I'm very dismissive succeed. I've seen products get very harsh feedback and, a few months later, the products were successful, had better user experiences, and their users loved them. But the visceral reaction to his project may have to do with the kind of expectations we have from web use vs. installed software. I know some people install anything they happen by, and will try all one-line command line installs and random .pkgs they find, but most people who care about security are wary of installing closed source software from a not-very-known third party, or run arbitrary code in a virtual machine. When you browse the web, there's an expectation of not worrying about security and malicious code execution. Javascript blurs that line, but it's mostly kept away from the innards of the host. Installed software is more intimate; in some ways, it's like letting a stranger into your kitchen, but not into into your bedroom. Of course, they can do harm in the kitchen too, but the bedroom has implications that go beyond physical access. HN can be very negative sometimes, and seeing angry or snide comments makes me sad too. You can give concrete, actionable advice and feedback without being an asshole, and no, that's not pretending to be nice, it's simply not going out of your way to be rude. But if you take everything into account, it's better to get discouraging comments from HN and filter them for real information than to be ignored.

RivieraKid 13y ago
I think you may be right with the idea that lot's of negative feedback may be good in a way, interesting observation. I think one of the main reasons why projects like Arc or NaCl started is that the web is that the web is not a very good platform. It was created as a platform for documents, not for apps. I wish there was a platform having advantages of both web and native platforms (Windows, Linux, Android, etc.).

enraged_camel 13y ago

If we have learned one thing from people like Elon Musk, it is to continue to do what you believe in despite all the naysayers. I hope the author continues working on the project.

mchannon 13y ago

I've seen him demo the product, and text just doesn't do it justice. It's awe-inspiring and I'm glad he finally decided it was ready for its admiring public (got worried there). I'd pay no mind to the naysayers; that internet thing was pretty dangerously insecure at first too. A 3-minute video demo (with no editing) is all Arthur needs to get the point across that this is the next big thing. Show the public what I've seen.

area51org 13y ago

I noticed, some two years ago, the tide turning. "Show HN" posts became painful to read; instead of mostly constructive criticism, most or all comments were angry and hypercritical. It's been sad to watch.

RivieraKid 13y ago
Unfortunately, HN is a monopoly in its niche, I don't see a good alternative.
- area51org 13y ago
  The only one I know of is lobste.rs, which is all fine and good if you know someone and can get an invite — without one, you're stuck in read-only mode. No idea why they'd make a decision like that. I like HN for its news, but am not so sure about its moderation policies, muchless the sometimes-hypercritical attitudes.

ma2rten 13y ago

I currently live in Thailand. This country may be the most polite in the world. In some situations Thais will never give you honest feedback [1]. For instance, they may give you compliments on how well you speak their language - regardless how well you actually speak it. Just to make you feel good. And (to some degree) they expect you to do the same. In this culture you never quite know what people really think. Hacker News is the opposite. You will get (mostly) constructive feedback from (mostly) smart people for free, that you could not get elsewhere if you were to pay money for it. Don't come here to stroke you ego. That said, if you get positive feedback you know it is for real and not just out of politeness. Sometimes however, people could package their criticism a little bit better or self-censor if it's not constructive. [1] I don't claim to understand Thai culture. In some cases I may be the extreme opposite. Where sometimes people say things to each other that would be considered outright insulting in the West to strangers.

RivieraKid 13y ago
That's a very good point. I recently realized that this bothers me too, especially in business - for example the appointment can be very polite and positive and they then just send a brief message saying that they've chosen someone else for the project without giving any reasons. And I don't even live in an especially polite country (Czech Republic) :) But: * I don't think total honesty is always the best amount of honesty, in some situations it's better to twist the truth slightly. I see it as a tradoff between honesty and politeness. * You can be honest in many different ways. I agree that some of the comments here could be rewritten to be less depressing for the author while staying honest.