8 ms·

Welcome to the Real World (Of Large Corporations), Dustin...

by zcrar70 17y ago

dcurtis 17y ago
You mean the real world of crappy large corporations. Plenty of large companies are not run this badly. At least I hope they're not.
- rgrieselhuber 17y ago
  Out of curiosity, what is your experience in producing web content for a site that serves dozens if not hundreds of business requirements at any given time? EDIT: at the scale of a site like AA.com or any global company?
  - dcurtis 17y ago
    I've only done very brief advising to groups in big companies, a long time ago. I've never worked in one. I can't imagine the horror. But it doesn't really matter if the company is big or small, does it? The end result still has to be of some level of quality regardless of the requirements. If something is wrong, there's either a problem on the business side (too many requirements/unfocused goals) or on the design side (bad designers).
    - edw519 17y ago
      "I can't imagine the horror." lol Try to look at it from another perspective. Getting lots of quality work done quickly? Yes, horror. But there are lots of things you encounter in these large organizations you simply don't see elsewhere. In terms of requirements, logistical issues, volumes, people, politics, etc. Once you push the envelope of your personal experience by dealing with these things, you become much better at everything, including lots of stuff you do for small companies. Think of it as practicing basketball with a smaller hoop. I have always oscillated between large and small companies, trying to assimilate the best of both. The battle scars from the horror will probably come in handy later.
    - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
      The reason I ask is not because I disagree with your demands for higher quality. What I think you're missing is just how difficult it is to organize that many people and interests. If you want your suggestions to be taken seriously, you need to provide them in a way that addresses those problems instead of simply demanding better results.* * I'm assuming you were writing primarily as a design critic, not as a frustrated consumer -- although I understand that the latter motivated the former.
      - sofal 17y ago
        I disagree with your demands for higher quality. Why? Because it's too hard? Does the difficulty of organizing that many people and interests cancel out the need for a better user experience? Is the market going to forgive AA because it knows that it's just really hard to get things done at AA?
        joshwa 17y ago
        Nope, the market is going to forgive AA because it didn't spend money on a new site and passed that $2.50 in savings per ticket on to the customer, which puts them $2.50 cheaper than the other guys, which nets them far more incremental sales than a better site would (at least so the theory goes).
        dandelany 17y ago
        Re-read that: "The reason I ask is not because I disagree with your demands for higher quality." (emphasis mine)
        sofal 17y ago
        Woops.
      - raganwald 17y ago
        What I think you're missing is just how difficult it is to organize that many people and interests. With respect for your suggestion and with passion for my opinion, it isn't Dustin's job to organize that many people and interests, it's management's job. If they run a company that functions like warring city-states, there's little anybody else can do. If they have united all the teams to work together on a single goal, that's a different story.
- jaxn 17y ago
  I am really impressed by AA's response. What is the largest team you have worked on? I read the letter and your reply. I love the Ira Glass series on taste as well, but do you really want your business analyst to have great taste? I mean, it might not hurt, but I can't imagine making that a job requirement. AA is not in business to make pretty websites. They are in business to effectively get people from point A to point B. Their website is effective. Your mockup is not as effective for some of the ways I interact with AA.com.
  - dcurtis 17y ago
    An interface is just a transporter to help you get from where you are to a place where your goal is completed. That's it. There are varying levels of "effectiveness" in transporting you, though, and that's where the quality of the interface comes in. For example, AA's current website is "effective" in the same way it is effective to travel 50 miles from here by walking. But what if you gave me a bike? What about a car? AA is in the business of giving their customers an enjoyable experience. They just happen to transport them via airplane as their business. Or at least that's how a customer experience designer should look at it, I think. And stuff like this is just totally unacceptable: http://dustincurtis.com/screenshots/Photoshop-20090522-083441.jpg http://dustincurtis.com/screenshots/Photoshop-20090522-08344... .
    - jaxn 17y ago
      You are wrong. On the front page of AA.com I can log into my frequent flyer account without having to click to go to a login form. Being able to select a date with the calendar is much more effective when trying to make plans three months out. Parsing unstructured data from text fields is "cool" but increases ambiguity for the majority of users. What if I want to buy a ticket with points or want to only see flights that have first class available? You're design is going to require me to fill out two forms (or toggle filters at some point). The AA.com website is not perfect. However, it is effective in ways your mockup is not. Your position is extremely arrogant and I doubt that you have the experience to back it up.
      - 17y ago
- raganwald 17y ago
  I don't know about "plenty," but I worked for a company with 1.8 trillion dollars in assets. They have a simple, very accessible self-service web site for their customers, and they work very hard on breaking down the factional fighting and silos that prevent a talented UX architect from actually doing his(?) job. Of course, they have it much easier in that they have a fanatical obsession with simplifying their product and service line rather than complificating it beyond human understanding. I'm thinking it is not a coïncidence that a company with a usuable self-service web site happens to be a company with simple, easy-to-understand products and pricing. Hard for me to say anything about AA's management, I am no expert. But looking at their web site, I would rather own the other company's stock.
  - Xichekolas 17y ago
    Just curious, can you reveal which company you are talking about? ING comes to mind, but mostly because I'm a happy customer and I figure a company with $1.8 trillion in assets has to be a bank.
    - raganwald 17y ago
      Or an insurance company! But I don't discuss my former clients and/or employers in public. But since you mention ING Direct, despite being much larger than most of the US banks that are their competition, they somehow act like the nimble underdogs.
- jamiequint 17y ago
  Steve Blank said in one of his Customer Development class podcasts on Venture Hacks that the natural way companies scale is replacing creativity with automation. Its very hard to have a large scale organization work when lots of people have autonomy and the freedom to be creative.
- hpvic03 17y ago
  I heard Herb Kelleher talk last year. He said: No matter what business you're in, you're in the business of customer service I think that having a well designed website would go under that category. And whether Dustin's design is great or not is irrelevant; the fact is that their current website can be vastly improved.
cubicle67 17y ago
I think the point is, it doesn't have to be this way. The fact that it is is due largely to those in charge, that have the power to change things, being willing to leave them as is. [Please read no further if comparisons with Apple annoy you :) ] This is the public face of AA, and it's crap. No one disputes that, and yet it's still the same. Could you imagine Steve Jobs as CEO of AA seeing this site and taking the excuses given? Can you see him taking "We're fixing it over the next 18 months" as an answer? [Edit: I think I'll market a new bracelet "WWSJD"]
- jaxn 17y ago
  Yeah, I think 18 months is reasonable. Here is Apple.com a couple of months after Jobs returned: http://web.archive.org/web/19970404064352/http://www.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19970404064352/http://www.apple.c... There was an iterative change about 8 months into Jobs' return. http://web.archive.org/web/19971013114837/http://www4.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19971013114837/http://www4.apple.... Then things really started to get better about month 15: http://web.archive.org/web/19980509035420/http://www.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19980509035420/http://www.apple.c...
  - bdotdub 17y ago
    The thing is is there doesn't seem to be any significant shift at AA. When Jobs came back, there was a changing of culture. With AA, nothing will really force them to change/adapt/make real changes if they can get away with what they're doing now.

Welcome to the Real World (Of Large Corporations), Dustin...

by zcrar70 17y ago

Welcome to the Real World (Of Large Corporations), Dustin...

You mean the real world of crappy large corporations. Plenty of large companies are not run this badly. At least I hope they're not.

rgrieselhuber 17y ago
Out of curiosity, what is your experience in producing web content for a site that serves dozens if not hundreds of business requirements at any given time? EDIT: at the scale of a site like AA.com or any global company?
- dcurtis 17y ago
  I've only done very brief advising to groups in big companies, a long time ago. I've never worked in one. I can't imagine the horror. But it doesn't really matter if the company is big or small, does it? The end result still has to be of some level of quality regardless of the requirements. If something is wrong, there's either a problem on the business side (too many requirements/unfocused goals) or on the design side (bad designers).
  - edw519 17y ago
    "I can't imagine the horror." lol Try to look at it from another perspective. Getting lots of quality work done quickly? Yes, horror. But there are lots of things you encounter in these large organizations you simply don't see elsewhere. In terms of requirements, logistical issues, volumes, people, politics, etc. Once you push the envelope of your personal experience by dealing with these things, you become much better at everything, including lots of stuff you do for small companies. Think of it as practicing basketball with a smaller hoop. I have always oscillated between large and small companies, trying to assimilate the best of both. The battle scars from the horror will probably come in handy later.
  - rgrieselhuber 17y ago
    The reason I ask is not because I disagree with your demands for higher quality. What I think you're missing is just how difficult it is to organize that many people and interests. If you want your suggestions to be taken seriously, you need to provide them in a way that addresses those problems instead of simply demanding better results.* * I'm assuming you were writing primarily as a design critic, not as a frustrated consumer -- although I understand that the latter motivated the former.
    - sofal 17y ago
      I disagree with your demands for higher quality. Why? Because it's too hard? Does the difficulty of organizing that many people and interests cancel out the need for a better user experience? Is the market going to forgive AA because it knows that it's just really hard to get things done at AA?
      - joshwa 17y ago
        Nope, the market is going to forgive AA because it didn't spend money on a new site and passed that $2.50 in savings per ticket on to the customer, which puts them $2.50 cheaper than the other guys, which nets them far more incremental sales than a better site would (at least so the theory goes).
      - dandelany 17y ago
        Re-read that: "The reason I ask is not because I disagree with your demands for higher quality." (emphasis mine)
        sofal 17y ago
        Woops.
    - raganwald 17y ago
      What I think you're missing is just how difficult it is to organize that many people and interests. With respect for your suggestion and with passion for my opinion, it isn't Dustin's job to organize that many people and interests, it's management's job. If they run a company that functions like warring city-states, there's little anybody else can do. If they have united all the teams to work together on a single goal, that's a different story.
jaxn 17y ago
I am really impressed by AA's response. What is the largest team you have worked on? I read the letter and your reply. I love the Ira Glass series on taste as well, but do you really want your business analyst to have great taste? I mean, it might not hurt, but I can't imagine making that a job requirement. AA is not in business to make pretty websites. They are in business to effectively get people from point A to point B. Their website is effective. Your mockup is not as effective for some of the ways I interact with AA.com.
- dcurtis 17y ago
  An interface is just a transporter to help you get from where you are to a place where your goal is completed. That's it. There are varying levels of "effectiveness" in transporting you, though, and that's where the quality of the interface comes in. For example, AA's current website is "effective" in the same way it is effective to travel 50 miles from here by walking. But what if you gave me a bike? What about a car? AA is in the business of giving their customers an enjoyable experience. They just happen to transport them via airplane as their business. Or at least that's how a customer experience designer should look at it, I think. And stuff like this is just totally unacceptable: http://dustincurtis.com/screenshots/Photoshop-20090522-083441.jpg http://dustincurtis.com/screenshots/Photoshop-20090522-08344... .
  - jaxn 17y ago
    You are wrong. On the front page of AA.com I can log into my frequent flyer account without having to click to go to a login form. Being able to select a date with the calendar is much more effective when trying to make plans three months out. Parsing unstructured data from text fields is "cool" but increases ambiguity for the majority of users. What if I want to buy a ticket with points or want to only see flights that have first class available? You're design is going to require me to fill out two forms (or toggle filters at some point). The AA.com website is not perfect. However, it is effective in ways your mockup is not. Your position is extremely arrogant and I doubt that you have the experience to back it up.
    - 17y ago
raganwald 17y ago
I don't know about "plenty," but I worked for a company with 1.8 trillion dollars in assets. They have a simple, very accessible self-service web site for their customers, and they work very hard on breaking down the factional fighting and silos that prevent a talented UX architect from actually doing his(?) job. Of course, they have it much easier in that they have a fanatical obsession with simplifying their product and service line rather than complificating it beyond human understanding. I'm thinking it is not a coïncidence that a company with a usuable self-service web site happens to be a company with simple, easy-to-understand products and pricing. Hard for me to say anything about AA's management, I am no expert. But looking at their web site, I would rather own the other company's stock.
- Xichekolas 17y ago
  Just curious, can you reveal which company you are talking about? ING comes to mind, but mostly because I'm a happy customer and I figure a company with $1.8 trillion in assets has to be a bank.
  - raganwald 17y ago
    Or an insurance company! But I don't discuss my former clients and/or employers in public. But since you mention ING Direct, despite being much larger than most of the US banks that are their competition, they somehow act like the nimble underdogs.
jamiequint 17y ago
Steve Blank said in one of his Customer Development class podcasts on Venture Hacks that the natural way companies scale is replacing creativity with automation. Its very hard to have a large scale organization work when lots of people have autonomy and the freedom to be creative.
hpvic03 17y ago
I heard Herb Kelleher talk last year. He said: No matter what business you're in, you're in the business of customer service I think that having a well designed website would go under that category. And whether Dustin's design is great or not is irrelevant; the fact is that their current website can be vastly improved.

cubicle67 17y ago

I think the point is, it doesn't have to be this way. The fact that it is is due largely to those in charge, that have the power to change things, being willing to leave them as is. [Please read no further if comparisons with Apple annoy you :) ] This is the public face of AA, and it's crap. No one disputes that, and yet it's still the same. Could you imagine Steve Jobs as CEO of AA seeing this site and taking the excuses given? Can you see him taking "We're fixing it over the next 18 months" as an answer? [Edit: I think I'll market a new bracelet "WWSJD"]

jaxn 17y ago
Yeah, I think 18 months is reasonable. Here is Apple.com a couple of months after Jobs returned: http://web.archive.org/web/19970404064352/http://www.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19970404064352/http://www.apple.c... There was an iterative change about 8 months into Jobs' return. http://web.archive.org/web/19971013114837/http://www4.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19971013114837/http://www4.apple.... Then things really started to get better about month 15: http://web.archive.org/web/19980509035420/http://www.apple.com/ http://web.archive.org/web/19980509035420/http://www.apple.c...
- bdotdub 17y ago
  The thing is is there doesn't seem to be any significant shift at AA. When Jobs came back, there was a changing of culture. With AA, nothing will really force them to change/adapt/make real changes if they can get away with what they're doing now.