4 ms·

On the contrary, the agency I work at now is almost purely a development agency. We usually get freelancers in to handle design, but I will pick up Photoshop wh

by EnderMB 13y ago

On the contrary, the agency I work at now is almost purely a development agency. We usually get freelancers in to handle design, but I will pick up Photoshop whenever I can to do very basic things, such as to mock-up a form change. However, I've worked with enough designers to know that even though I can create a design, that I am no designer, and that it would be offensive to a real designers ability for me to compare myself with them. I can cook a mean steak, but I'm no Gordon Ramsey. I agree entirely that all designers should learn to handle basic code, and vice versa. In fact, any agency I've worked at has worked similarly, and was very keen to get each "side" working collaboratively and learning how the other half lives. It's a necessary part of getting an agency working in the same direction. However, putting a designer in front of an IDE doesn't make them a developer by title.

randomdata 13y ago
> I will pick up Photoshop whenever I can to do very basic things, such as to mock-up a form change. That's not exactly the kind of environment that fosters improvement on the design side though. In fact, your situation sounds similar to mine right now where the design work I do end up doing is basic things like that and the results usually end up being pretty poor. Your structure really has to treat design and development as one in the same if you want to see growth on both sides. But those jobs are so rare, people are forced into only one aspect of the job, which produces what you've witnessed. And thus begins the feedback loop.
- EnderMB 13y ago
  You're making a number of baseless assumptions about the quality of my job. I'd say my company is more than ideal. In fact, I'd say that we're pretty darn close to having one of the best processes I've seen in an agency or startup. We work very closely with designers. We're a part of all kick-off meetings, we're involved in all phases, we even sit in during workshops so we understand the process from the client perspective. It is a process that works well in all manners of small business, and most importantly, it works for our clients. My design work is basic because the task is basic. Why pay for a designers time when I can modify something in 5 minutes? It's basic common sense to do so.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > You're making a number of baseless assumptions about the quality of my job... We work very closely with designers. Unless you disagree with my earlier premise that the skills see some atrophy if not used, then you most certainly do not have an environment that fosters designer/developer skills. If you have specialized roles, and you are handing the majority of the design work over to a dedicated designer, then you are left with a developer seeing an emphasis on developing code. I do not have to make any assumptions, that is just basic mathematics. Jumping into Photoshop every once in a while to help out does not lead to a "senior level designer" as you already attested to yourself. You have to have intense focus on both almost every day if you want to see senior level quality on both sides. It can be done, but the jobs are quite rare, so few people ever have the opportunity to reach that level. It goes without saying that finding such people then becomes a challenge, but not because of it being some fundamental truth. Programming itself requires design skills, so we know all (good) programmers have what it takes to be good designers by default, they just need an environment to frequently practice those skills in contexts other than the text editor.
    - EnderMB 13y ago
      I had written comments for the rest of your points, but then I read your final paragraph. > Programming itself requires design skills, so we know all (good) programmers have what it takes to be good designers by default, they just need an environment to frequently practice those skills in contexts other than the text editor. This is a huge red flag for me. The design skills you are talking about are incomparable to the design skills my comments have referenced.
      - randomdata 13y ago
        It is well understood in programming circles that the code layout/design is one of the most important aspects of maintainability, and achieving that requires exercising the same parts of the brain that any other design work does. The most obtuse example is the old Perl one-liner, which is generally void of any real design thought, and can scare away the best programmers just at the first glance. But even code that attempts to be written well can fall short without the developer having some design sensibilities; the same sensibilities that apply to any design medium. Good code, and therefore maintainable code, brings on a positive emotional response before you even start reading the content within. That's straight up design. The exact same kind of work you do in Photoshop, a piece of paper with a pencil, paint and canvas, etc. You claimed earlier to not be able to call yourself a designer, so I'm going to assume you do not have the experience outside of the code medium to see the overlap, but that doesn't mean it is not there.

by EnderMB 13y ago

randomdata 13y ago

> I will pick up Photoshop whenever I can to do very basic things, such as to mock-up a form change. That's not exactly the kind of environment that fosters improvement on the design side though. In fact, your situation sounds similar to mine right now where the design work I do end up doing is basic things like that and the results usually end up being pretty poor. Your structure really has to treat design and development as one in the same if you want to see growth on both sides. But those jobs are so rare, people are forced into only one aspect of the job, which produces what you've witnessed. And thus begins the feedback loop.

EnderMB 13y ago
You're making a number of baseless assumptions about the quality of my job. I'd say my company is more than ideal. In fact, I'd say that we're pretty darn close to having one of the best processes I've seen in an agency or startup. We work very closely with designers. We're a part of all kick-off meetings, we're involved in all phases, we even sit in during workshops so we understand the process from the client perspective. It is a process that works well in all manners of small business, and most importantly, it works for our clients. My design work is basic because the task is basic. Why pay for a designers time when I can modify something in 5 minutes? It's basic common sense to do so.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > You're making a number of baseless assumptions about the quality of my job... We work very closely with designers. Unless you disagree with my earlier premise that the skills see some atrophy if not used, then you most certainly do not have an environment that fosters designer/developer skills. If you have specialized roles, and you are handing the majority of the design work over to a dedicated designer, then you are left with a developer seeing an emphasis on developing code. I do not have to make any assumptions, that is just basic mathematics. Jumping into Photoshop every once in a while to help out does not lead to a "senior level designer" as you already attested to yourself. You have to have intense focus on both almost every day if you want to see senior level quality on both sides. It can be done, but the jobs are quite rare, so few people ever have the opportunity to reach that level. It goes without saying that finding such people then becomes a challenge, but not because of it being some fundamental truth. Programming itself requires design skills, so we know all (good) programmers have what it takes to be good designers by default, they just need an environment to frequently practice those skills in contexts other than the text editor.
  - EnderMB 13y ago
    I had written comments for the rest of your points, but then I read your final paragraph. > Programming itself requires design skills, so we know all (good) programmers have what it takes to be good designers by default, they just need an environment to frequently practice those skills in contexts other than the text editor. This is a huge red flag for me. The design skills you are talking about are incomparable to the design skills my comments have referenced.
    - randomdata 13y ago
      It is well understood in programming circles that the code layout/design is one of the most important aspects of maintainability, and achieving that requires exercising the same parts of the brain that any other design work does. The most obtuse example is the old Perl one-liner, which is generally void of any real design thought, and can scare away the best programmers just at the first glance. But even code that attempts to be written well can fall short without the developer having some design sensibilities; the same sensibilities that apply to any design medium. Good code, and therefore maintainable code, brings on a positive emotional response before you even start reading the content within. That's straight up design. The exact same kind of work you do in Photoshop, a piece of paper with a pencil, paint and canvas, etc. You claimed earlier to not be able to call yourself a designer, so I'm going to assume you do not have the experience outside of the code medium to see the overlap, but that doesn't mean it is not there.