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> Web Design: ...Specific skills would be design-tools-of-choice, HTML, CSS, and light JavaScript. I've worked in a startup, and at a few design/web agencies,

by EnderMB 13y ago

> Web Design: ...Specific skills would be design-tools-of-choice, HTML, CSS, and light JavaScript. I've worked in a startup, and at a few design/web agencies, and I'm yet to see a single "Web Designer" write HTML/CSS, let alone JavaScript. A Web Designer does just that; creates designs for the web. There are some designers that like to write mark-up, but they never class themselves as designers without mentioning that they can handle front-end development too. I find it safe to say that if someone classes themselves as a designer, they design. Writing mark-up is not design. One other issue I have is with the prefix "Lead". Senior indicates experience, whereas Lead states that they lead a team. My first full-time job after university was at a start-up and after six months I became the Lead Developer. I was in no way Senior, but the title Lead was correct as I led all development, along with the decisions that came along with it.

flyosity 13y ago
And on the flip side, if you are a freelancer with a title of "Web Designer" then it is expected that you can also build the webpages that you create. Businesses want someone to design & build them a website and if you can only do part of that job then you can only make part of the money they want to pay. I don't know anyone doing web design consulting/freelancing who can't also write HTML and CSS.
- EnderMB 13y ago
  I've met a few freelancers that claim to be able to do both, but they tend to fall into either the designer or developer camp; either a good developer that can just about use Photoshop, or a designer that can throw some mark-up together. In each instance they've always classed themselves as "Web Designer and Developer" and never as either. Either way, I'd never hire one person to do everything, and no company I've ever worked at, including non-tech companies have ever been ignorant enough to suggest that one person should do everything. A designer designs and a developer develops. I wouldn't expect a plasterer to fit my windows on my house.
  - bluthru 13y ago
    >I wouldn't expect a plasterer to fit my windows on my house. I don't think that analogy fits. A more apt analogy would be "an architect creates the construction documents for his/her designs." I'm an architect and I can also do web design and front-end development (with some light server-side code). Understanding the medium is essential to be a good designer. Html/css informs visual design for the web, just like materiality and structure informs building design. Design thrives on informed constraints--otherwise it's just art. Some web designers today go straight to code after some sketches.
    - EnderMB 13y ago
      The analogy is the least important part of the post. The argument still stands that a designer designs and a developer develops. Some designers do go straight to code, but usually in a prototyping stage and absolutely not as a build for a final website. The original post is about outlining a job title, and anyone that has worked with a half-decent designer will know that there is FAR more to design than simply setting up a PSD or sketching out a structure, using either a prototyping tool or straight in code (using something like Zurb Foundation). I'd argue that there's far more to understanding the medium, and the constraints of building for the web. Any design agency will run a business through a number of processes to come up with a design that accurately represents them, before ANY design work has been done. UX is a part of this, but there are also many other stages in planning. Some agencies are big on archtypes, some are big on kick-off workshops. When you take all that stuff into consideration, the analogy isn't so far off. What a lot of professional designers do is very far from mocking up a structure in code or in a PSD. On the flip side, I know some designers that do create prototypes using something like Foundation, but very few of them would ever want to be trusted with a front-end build for a real project.
  - randomdata 13y ago
    > In each instance they've always classed themselves as "Web Designer and Developer" and never as either. I've had independent jobs as a designer (including one that was not related to software at all) and as a developer. Though I do bill myself as a designer and developer because I enjoy both and prefer to have a job that is the mix of both. > I'd never hire one person to do everything I think that's fair for a number of reasons, but why not hire two people who are great at both aspects? Then they can collaborate on both sides of the project, which is surely better than having someone who can only design and someone who can only develop.
grey-area 13y ago
I find it safe to say that if someone classes themselves as a designer, they design. Writing mark-up is not design. Writing markup absolutely is part of design, just as putting pencil to paper can also form part of a designer's job. I say this as a designer who uses both. It is of course not the most important part of design, but I'd argue it's essential to understand your medium, and on the web HTML and pixels is the medium, just as paper and the four colour process was for a previous generation of designers. If you work in places where roles are specialised, you won't see anyone crossing the boundaries because they've all been kept in their box by the organisation they work for. That doesn't mean that people don't cross the boundaries elsewhere. If you'd worked in several startups I'm quite sure you'd find designers who were also proficient in development, and certainly designers who like to produce HTML so that they can control the final styling and tweak it as necessary when it is in production, without having to go through a gatekeeper to do so. I'm not sure why you're so insistent that web designers cannot use HTML? Many designers use HTML to produce their mockups, and also to produce final designs, and some even do some programming too. There are many parallels between designing in code and designing in graphics - both are problem solving at heart. The site you are writing this on was created by the author of Hackers and Painters after all :)
- EnderMB 13y ago
  > Writing markup absolutely is part of design So you'd expect a designer to be able to write concise mark-up that works on all required browsers, works well on modern mobile devices and writes clean code? If so, I'd like to meet someone that fits this description. For the gist of my argument, please read through my other comments on this. Your argument about workplace is very loaded towards your argument. Agencies are very specialised work places, but you talk about it as if it's a negative thing. Surely, it is essential for such companies to specialise because agencies are expected to work across a wide range of clients, and to have the experience to handle the full digital process? I've worked in a startup before, a non-technical startup, and even they had the sense to hire a good designer to handle a redesign. I'm "insistent" that a designer should design because that's their job title. I've never stated that a designer should never touch HTML, only that a designer shouldn't be expected to write HTML to the same level of quality as a front-end developer. > The site you are writing this on was created by the author of Hackers and Painters after all :) And how many designers would be happy to put this design on their portfolio?

by EnderMB 13y ago

flyosity 13y ago

And on the flip side, if you are a freelancer with a title of "Web Designer" then it is expected that you can also build the webpages that you create. Businesses want someone to design & build them a website and if you can only do part of that job then you can only make part of the money they want to pay. I don't know anyone doing web design consulting/freelancing who can't also write HTML and CSS.

EnderMB 13y ago
I've met a few freelancers that claim to be able to do both, but they tend to fall into either the designer or developer camp; either a good developer that can just about use Photoshop, or a designer that can throw some mark-up together. In each instance they've always classed themselves as "Web Designer and Developer" and never as either. Either way, I'd never hire one person to do everything, and no company I've ever worked at, including non-tech companies have ever been ignorant enough to suggest that one person should do everything. A designer designs and a developer develops. I wouldn't expect a plasterer to fit my windows on my house.
- bluthru 13y ago
  >I wouldn't expect a plasterer to fit my windows on my house. I don't think that analogy fits. A more apt analogy would be "an architect creates the construction documents for his/her designs." I'm an architect and I can also do web design and front-end development (with some light server-side code). Understanding the medium is essential to be a good designer. Html/css informs visual design for the web, just like materiality and structure informs building design. Design thrives on informed constraints--otherwise it's just art. Some web designers today go straight to code after some sketches.
  - EnderMB 13y ago
    The analogy is the least important part of the post. The argument still stands that a designer designs and a developer develops. Some designers do go straight to code, but usually in a prototyping stage and absolutely not as a build for a final website. The original post is about outlining a job title, and anyone that has worked with a half-decent designer will know that there is FAR more to design than simply setting up a PSD or sketching out a structure, using either a prototyping tool or straight in code (using something like Zurb Foundation). I'd argue that there's far more to understanding the medium, and the constraints of building for the web. Any design agency will run a business through a number of processes to come up with a design that accurately represents them, before ANY design work has been done. UX is a part of this, but there are also many other stages in planning. Some agencies are big on archtypes, some are big on kick-off workshops. When you take all that stuff into consideration, the analogy isn't so far off. What a lot of professional designers do is very far from mocking up a structure in code or in a PSD. On the flip side, I know some designers that do create prototypes using something like Foundation, but very few of them would ever want to be trusted with a front-end build for a real project.
- randomdata 13y ago
  > In each instance they've always classed themselves as "Web Designer and Developer" and never as either. I've had independent jobs as a designer (including one that was not related to software at all) and as a developer. Though I do bill myself as a designer and developer because I enjoy both and prefer to have a job that is the mix of both. > I'd never hire one person to do everything I think that's fair for a number of reasons, but why not hire two people who are great at both aspects? Then they can collaborate on both sides of the project, which is surely better than having someone who can only design and someone who can only develop.

grey-area 13y ago

I find it safe to say that if someone classes themselves as a designer, they design. Writing mark-up is not design. Writing markup absolutely is part of design, just as putting pencil to paper can also form part of a designer's job. I say this as a designer who uses both. It is of course not the most important part of design, but I'd argue it's essential to understand your medium, and on the web HTML and pixels is the medium, just as paper and the four colour process was for a previous generation of designers. If you work in places where roles are specialised, you won't see anyone crossing the boundaries because they've all been kept in their box by the organisation they work for. That doesn't mean that people don't cross the boundaries elsewhere. If you'd worked in several startups I'm quite sure you'd find designers who were also proficient in development, and certainly designers who like to produce HTML so that they can control the final styling and tweak it as necessary when it is in production, without having to go through a gatekeeper to do so. I'm not sure why you're so insistent that web designers cannot use HTML? Many designers use HTML to produce their mockups, and also to produce final designs, and some even do some programming too. There are many parallels between designing in code and designing in graphics - both are problem solving at heart. The site you are writing this on was created by the author of Hackers and Painters after all :)

EnderMB 13y ago
> Writing markup absolutely is part of design So you'd expect a designer to be able to write concise mark-up that works on all required browsers, works well on modern mobile devices and writes clean code? If so, I'd like to meet someone that fits this description. For the gist of my argument, please read through my other comments on this. Your argument about workplace is very loaded towards your argument. Agencies are very specialised work places, but you talk about it as if it's a negative thing. Surely, it is essential for such companies to specialise because agencies are expected to work across a wide range of clients, and to have the experience to handle the full digital process? I've worked in a startup before, a non-technical startup, and even they had the sense to hire a good designer to handle a redesign. I'm "insistent" that a designer should design because that's their job title. I've never stated that a designer should never touch HTML, only that a designer shouldn't be expected to write HTML to the same level of quality as a front-end developer. > The site you are writing this on was created by the author of Hackers and Painters after all :) And how many designers would be happy to put this design on their portfolio?