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You seem to think these programmers are content with simply learning only what they need to know and calling it a day. As a self taught developer, I find it of

You seem to think these programmers are content with simply learning only what they need to know and calling it a day. As a self taught developer, I find it offensive that you think I would go through all the trouble of teaching myself how to code, and then rest on my laurels, like I wasn't inherently curious and thoughtful. Since learning Javascript front to back, I've developed a curiosity with strictly typed languages, assembly, computer science, Big O notation and other (what I consider) hardcore disciplines in computing. Javascript was my gateway, and I love it to death, but I'm not a javascript developer any more than a C developer is simply a C developer.

pjmlp 13y ago
People like yourself are the exception, usually the majority follows what the parent post was stating. As someone that codes since 1986 with a CS degree, I am often dismayed what many "programmers" seem to know nowadays.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  To quote Sturgeon "90% of everything is CRUD". Majority of people that get CS now is due to money (how else to justify the expense of a diploma?), not the appeal computers have, and it's been like that for a while. Lowering barrier to entry is +EV move, almost always. It multiplies crud but more importantly multiplies the 10% that are worth the crud.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    > Majority of people that get CS now is due to money (how else to justify the expense of a diploma?) Not sure where you are, but universities in Europe are not like in USA. In many countries public universities are more renowned than private ones and in some, it is even quite symbolic what you pay per semester.
- amorphid 13y ago
  Programmer may have been an elite title at one time, but now it's just like saying gardner, chef, or scientist. You just have to work a little harder to figure out whether or not someone is a moron. There have always been morons and there always will be. I may be one of them!
PommeDeTerre 13y ago
I don't intend to offend you, but I think you illustrate a problem with many programmers who have come into the field with a self-taught JavaScript or PHP background, and without any sort of a formal education. Type systems, complexity analysis, and assembly language programming, for example, aren't "hardcore disciplines in computing". They're the basic foundation upon which the rest of our knowledge is built. They are among the minimal level of knowledge that all programmers should have. When you understand concepts such as those first, and are exposed to JavaScript later on, it's plainly obvious how inexcusably bad JavaScript is. While theory may not always work well in practice, JavaScript goes out of its way to ignore sensible and practical theory in every way possible. People starting with JavaScript (or PHP; JavaScript isn't alone in being a bad language), but without this basic theoretical knowledge, don't seem to realize how bad the language truly is. It's unfortunate to see them not accept and admit to these flaws, even after the learn that there are much better ways of doing things.
- lowboy 13y ago
  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/notruescotsman https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/notruescotsman
- foobarbazqux 13y ago
  > Type systems, complexity analysis, and assembly language programming, for example, aren't "hardcore disciplines in computing". They're the basic foundation upon which the rest of our knowledge is built. Your second sentence pretty much defines "hardcore". The "hard core" of anything is what supports the rest. Originally the term is from the mid-19th century and refers to a layer of broken stones and bricks that provided support for a building project, commonly roads. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523412 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523412

pjmlp 13y ago

People like yourself are the exception, usually the majority follows what the parent post was stating. As someone that codes since 1986 with a CS degree, I am often dismayed what many "programmers" seem to know nowadays.

Ygg2 13y ago
To quote Sturgeon "90% of everything is CRUD". Majority of people that get CS now is due to money (how else to justify the expense of a diploma?), not the appeal computers have, and it's been like that for a while. Lowering barrier to entry is +EV move, almost always. It multiplies crud but more importantly multiplies the 10% that are worth the crud.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  > Majority of people that get CS now is due to money (how else to justify the expense of a diploma?) Not sure where you are, but universities in Europe are not like in USA. In many countries public universities are more renowned than private ones and in some, it is even quite symbolic what you pay per semester.
amorphid 13y ago
Programmer may have been an elite title at one time, but now it's just like saying gardner, chef, or scientist. You just have to work a little harder to figure out whether or not someone is a moron. There have always been morons and there always will be. I may be one of them!

PommeDeTerre 13y ago

I don't intend to offend you, but I think you illustrate a problem with many programmers who have come into the field with a self-taught JavaScript or PHP background, and without any sort of a formal education. Type systems, complexity analysis, and assembly language programming, for example, aren't "hardcore disciplines in computing". They're the basic foundation upon which the rest of our knowledge is built. They are among the minimal level of knowledge that all programmers should have. When you understand concepts such as those first, and are exposed to JavaScript later on, it's plainly obvious how inexcusably bad JavaScript is. While theory may not always work well in practice, JavaScript goes out of its way to ignore sensible and practical theory in every way possible. People starting with JavaScript (or PHP; JavaScript isn't alone in being a bad language), but without this basic theoretical knowledge, don't seem to realize how bad the language truly is. It's unfortunate to see them not accept and admit to these flaws, even after the learn that there are much better ways of doing things.

lowboy 13y ago
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/notruescotsman https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/notruescotsman
foobarbazqux 13y ago
> Type systems, complexity analysis, and assembly language programming, for example, aren't "hardcore disciplines in computing". They're the basic foundation upon which the rest of our knowledge is built. Your second sentence pretty much defines "hardcore". The "hard core" of anything is what supports the rest. Originally the term is from the mid-19th century and refers to a layer of broken stones and bricks that provided support for a building project, commonly roads. http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523412 http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=523412