4 ms·

Developer Salary Levels, 2004-2009

21 points by soundsop 17y ago

swombat 17y ago
And what, pray tell, is the difference between a "Software Engineer" and a "Programmer/Analyst"?
- bravura 17y ago
  I got tripped immediately on "Object Visual Programmer".
- _giu 17y ago
  after you've finished an apprenticeship as an application developer here in switzerland, you're a "programmer" and after getting your CS / SE degree (university), you're a "software engineer".
  - swombat 17y ago
    They have apprenticeships for programming in Switzerland now? (I'm Swiss, but living in the UK)
    - _giu 17y ago
      yes. don't know when they introduced the apprenticeship as an application developer, but when I started (I started my apprenticeship ~ 7 years ago and completed it after 4 years) you could chose between system technician (or system engineer), supporter or application developer. (btw, please excuse my delayed answer)
- democracy 17y ago
  I did contract once in a small company, they had developers & software engineers. Software Engineers were people with a CS/IT degree, I know nothing about the difference in rates though.
  - swombat 17y ago
    Funny, my first job was as a "Junior Software Engineer". I have no IT degree (did physics instead).
  - henriklied 17y ago
    A couple of years back, I worked for a large corporation doing software development. I have no formal education related to development, but my payslip still said "HI INGENIØR", which is the term used to describe a mid-level Software Engineer internally in the company.
- patio11 17y ago
  The common usage in Japan is that programmers are code monkeys who require intensive supervision ("Devise a Java program which will read this column from this table and then perform these three checks then update this column and...") and software engineers are more senior code monkeys who are capable of receiving a broader direction (such as "This system needs to display this data") and figuring out how to make it happen. Hence, for the first two years at my job, every time I made a mistake I was told "Patrick, come on, you are NOT a programmer".
- matthewking 17y ago
  I would guess that a software engineer gets told what functionality to produce, but they still have freedom over implementation details, where as a programmer analyst has to possibly work with clients to determine the problem and a suitable solution, before getting to work - so the analyst may then work with engineers to get the job done once a spec had been produced.
- smokinn 17y ago
  In Quebec at least, these are official titles. Software Engineer, unlike in the US and most of the rest of the world, is a protected title. You can't go around calling yourself a Software Engineer unless you have a degree in Software Engineering and went through the accreditation process with the OIQ (Ordre des Ingenieurs du Quebec). Programmer/Analyst on the other hand is the title you get from a CEGEP degree. In Quebec there's an extra step between high school and university. We finish high school 1 year earlier but do either 2 years of CEGEP in a general education program and move on to university or do a technical degree (typically 3 years). One of the technical degrees you can get is in computer science and your title when you graduate is usually going to be Programmer/Analyst. These are generally lower paying code monkey jobs whereas Software Engineers usually start higher up on the corporate totem pole. CEGEP degrees are somewhat equivalent to degrees from community colleges in the states I think. You can also get a university degree in computer science. If you go that route you won't be allowed to call yourself an engineer but you'll have basically exactly the same starting position and offers people coming out of software engineering will.
csbartus 17y ago
Do freelancers earn more than employees?
- democracy 17y ago
  "Full-time" freelancers do, however they are employees as well in that scenario
- kailashbadu 17y ago
  they certainly do; provided they have enough work to keep their hands busy all the time.
  - stevejalim 17y ago
    does it still hold true when you factor in the cost of replicating staff benefits? I've always found it hard to chip into pension etc when freelance (but that's just me)
    - Quarrelsome 17y ago
      Bear in mind the difference can be up to double the pay of salaried.
      - bmj 17y ago
        This has been my experience jumping between salaried positions and freelance work.
pieter 17y ago
Anyone know where to find similar numbers for (west)Europe?
logic 17y ago
Here's a somewhat more visual version of this that I whipped up quickly when this appeared on Reddit: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rDPGKugP7_BC8ksp3PFyy9A&output=html http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rDPGKugP7_BC8ksp3PFyy...
abyssknight 17y ago
Either this list is an average between the east and west coast or I need to go talk to management. ;) Definitely going to ask for a title change next review period, that's for sure. Sheesh!

21 points by soundsop 17y ago

swombat 17y ago

And what, pray tell, is the difference between a "Software Engineer" and a "Programmer/Analyst"?

bravura 17y ago
I got tripped immediately on "Object Visual Programmer".
_giu 17y ago
after you've finished an apprenticeship as an application developer here in switzerland, you're a "programmer" and after getting your CS / SE degree (university), you're a "software engineer".
- swombat 17y ago
  They have apprenticeships for programming in Switzerland now? (I'm Swiss, but living in the UK)
  - _giu 17y ago
    yes. don't know when they introduced the apprenticeship as an application developer, but when I started (I started my apprenticeship ~ 7 years ago and completed it after 4 years) you could chose between system technician (or system engineer), supporter or application developer. (btw, please excuse my delayed answer)
democracy 17y ago
I did contract once in a small company, they had developers & software engineers. Software Engineers were people with a CS/IT degree, I know nothing about the difference in rates though.
- swombat 17y ago
  Funny, my first job was as a "Junior Software Engineer". I have no IT degree (did physics instead).
- henriklied 17y ago
  A couple of years back, I worked for a large corporation doing software development. I have no formal education related to development, but my payslip still said "HI INGENIØR", which is the term used to describe a mid-level Software Engineer internally in the company.
patio11 17y ago
The common usage in Japan is that programmers are code monkeys who require intensive supervision ("Devise a Java program which will read this column from this table and then perform these three checks then update this column and...") and software engineers are more senior code monkeys who are capable of receiving a broader direction (such as "This system needs to display this data") and figuring out how to make it happen. Hence, for the first two years at my job, every time I made a mistake I was told "Patrick, come on, you are NOT a programmer".
matthewking 17y ago
I would guess that a software engineer gets told what functionality to produce, but they still have freedom over implementation details, where as a programmer analyst has to possibly work with clients to determine the problem and a suitable solution, before getting to work - so the analyst may then work with engineers to get the job done once a spec had been produced.
smokinn 17y ago
In Quebec at least, these are official titles. Software Engineer, unlike in the US and most of the rest of the world, is a protected title. You can't go around calling yourself a Software Engineer unless you have a degree in Software Engineering and went through the accreditation process with the OIQ (Ordre des Ingenieurs du Quebec). Programmer/Analyst on the other hand is the title you get from a CEGEP degree. In Quebec there's an extra step between high school and university. We finish high school 1 year earlier but do either 2 years of CEGEP in a general education program and move on to university or do a technical degree (typically 3 years). One of the technical degrees you can get is in computer science and your title when you graduate is usually going to be Programmer/Analyst. These are generally lower paying code monkey jobs whereas Software Engineers usually start higher up on the corporate totem pole. CEGEP degrees are somewhat equivalent to degrees from community colleges in the states I think. You can also get a university degree in computer science. If you go that route you won't be allowed to call yourself an engineer but you'll have basically exactly the same starting position and offers people coming out of software engineering will.

csbartus 17y ago

Do freelancers earn more than employees?

democracy 17y ago
"Full-time" freelancers do, however they are employees as well in that scenario
kailashbadu 17y ago
they certainly do; provided they have enough work to keep their hands busy all the time.
- stevejalim 17y ago
  does it still hold true when you factor in the cost of replicating staff benefits? I've always found it hard to chip into pension etc when freelance (but that's just me)
  - Quarrelsome 17y ago
    Bear in mind the difference can be up to double the pay of salaried.
    - bmj 17y ago
      This has been my experience jumping between salaried positions and freelance work.

pieter 17y ago

Anyone know where to find similar numbers for (west)Europe?

logic 17y ago

Here's a somewhat more visual version of this that I whipped up quickly when this appeared on Reddit: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rDPGKugP7_BC8ksp3PFyy9A&output=html http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rDPGKugP7_BC8ksp3PFyy...

abyssknight 17y ago

Either this list is an average between the east and west coast or I need to go talk to management. ;) Definitely going to ask for a title change next review period, that's for sure. Sheesh!