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What happens with forks of the code is not relevant. The original code and the original project continue to exist, and so would the community around it. There's

by hhw 13y ago

What happens with forks of the code is not relevant. The original code and the original project continue to exist, and so would the community around it. There's no reason why they would abandon the existing, BSD-licensed project for the new proprietary one. The existence of the new project doesn't have any direct adverse effect on the original one. At the same time, users of the fork still benefit from the original code that exists in the new project, as there is no need to rewrite it. That effort can then be made to make the new project better. There may not be as much of a benefit as there would be if the fork was also open source, but there's clearly still some benefit if users find it useful enough to use it. Now, an argument can be made that the ability to fork the code may prevent people from contributing to the original project. In practice, maintaining the diffs for any reasonably active project is a lot of work, and it makes sense to contribute as many changes back as possible, leaving out only the 'secret sauce' bits, just to reduce the amount of work necessary to maintain the fork. Those proprietary bits might have made it into the original project if it were using a copyleft license, but they also might not have been made at all.

saurik 13y ago
You continue to be looking at this from the perspective of a developer: the user was given a binary and wants to be able to edit the binary; the practical way to edit the binary is to get the source code for it, modify it, recompile it, and replace the binary... the BSD license model does not guarantee that this is possible, so the user does not have the freedom to modify the actual program they are using: sure they might have the source code (and I think, for sake of this argument, it is most interesting to assume a totally benevolent developer who does provide all of the source code for every open source project they work with, as that neatly and totally destroys any attempt to argue about source code), but it is now likely statically linked with a bunch of stuff that they don't have the code for (or worse, is running on a hardware device with cryptographic signatures) and so their modified build is useless. To the user of this binary, your arguments about potential benefits to an upstream open source project are thereby off-topic (especially if the source code is fully available and no one is hiding any modifications) and your discussion of "forks" is downright nonsensical: given 100% of the source code of the software running on a TiVo, you still have no freedom at all to actually modify that software. The system is "open" in some weird, mostly academic fashion, in that you can easily find out how it works, and maybe you could even build a TiVo competitor based on it, but to the owner of a TiVo--an actual user of the distributed binaries--the source code is worthless. The GPL's purpose is to guarantee that a user of a binary will always have the freedom to change the functionality of that binary in the context of their use. This is a fundamental freedom of the user that requires the developer to give up some freedoms with regards to how they deploy their binaries and has nothing to do with projects and forks or even source code in any direct way. This is a trade off related to a subjective understanding of "freedom" as it applies to different actors in the system, and so to understand why the GPL is interesting you have to be willing to temporarily take off the hat of a project maintainer and put on the hat of a user, as the GPL's purpose (and yes, this is somewhat sadly ironic) is to protect the rights of a different player in the ecosystem than the maintainer whose job it is to choose a license for their project.
- hhw 13y ago
  You continue to underestimate the importance of the original work as a product, and overestimate the importance of the license of the original work. The GPL doesn't guarantee that a potential derivative work would be open source. The developer that might have based their work on open source might choose not to use the code of the original work in their project so as to avoid having to make their own work open source as well. This is a loss to the world, as the quality of their work would most likely not be as good, either because the code wouldn't be community reviewed or simply because time was spent writing code with functionality that already exists as open source taking away time from other features. GPL or BSD, somewhere along the line, the developer has to willingly make their work open source. The only case the GPL can force someone to make their work open source is if someone has used GPL code with the intention of violating the license, but are later exposed to have used GPL code and are shamed into open sourcing it. At the end of the day, the user only has freedoms to the code that the developer chooses to grant. Whether this is by choosing to use GPL code in their project and making it GPL as well, using BSD code in their project and making it BSD as well, or not using GPL code (but possibly BSD code) and not making their work open source.

by hhw 13y ago

saurik 13y ago

You continue to be looking at this from the perspective of a developer: the user was given a binary and wants to be able to edit the binary; the practical way to edit the binary is to get the source code for it, modify it, recompile it, and replace the binary... the BSD license model does not guarantee that this is possible, so the user does not have the freedom to modify the actual program they are using: sure they might have the source code (and I think, for sake of this argument, it is most interesting to assume a totally benevolent developer who does provide all of the source code for every open source project they work with, as that neatly and totally destroys any attempt to argue about source code), but it is now likely statically linked with a bunch of stuff that they don't have the code for (or worse, is running on a hardware device with cryptographic signatures) and so their modified build is useless. To the user of this binary, your arguments about potential benefits to an upstream open source project are thereby off-topic (especially if the source code is fully available and no one is hiding any modifications) and your discussion of "forks" is downright nonsensical: given 100% of the source code of the software running on a TiVo, you still have no freedom at all to actually modify that software. The system is "open" in some weird, mostly academic fashion, in that you can easily find out how it works, and maybe you could even build a TiVo competitor based on it, but to the owner of a TiVo--an actual user of the distributed binaries--the source code is worthless. The GPL's purpose is to guarantee that a user of a binary will always have the freedom to change the functionality of that binary in the context of their use. This is a fundamental freedom of the user that requires the developer to give up some freedoms with regards to how they deploy their binaries and has nothing to do with projects and forks or even source code in any direct way. This is a trade off related to a subjective understanding of "freedom" as it applies to different actors in the system, and so to understand why the GPL is interesting you have to be willing to temporarily take off the hat of a project maintainer and put on the hat of a user, as the GPL's purpose (and yes, this is somewhat sadly ironic) is to protect the rights of a different player in the ecosystem than the maintainer whose job it is to choose a license for their project.

hhw 13y ago
You continue to underestimate the importance of the original work as a product, and overestimate the importance of the license of the original work. The GPL doesn't guarantee that a potential derivative work would be open source. The developer that might have based their work on open source might choose not to use the code of the original work in their project so as to avoid having to make their own work open source as well. This is a loss to the world, as the quality of their work would most likely not be as good, either because the code wouldn't be community reviewed or simply because time was spent writing code with functionality that already exists as open source taking away time from other features. GPL or BSD, somewhere along the line, the developer has to willingly make their work open source. The only case the GPL can force someone to make their work open source is if someone has used GPL code with the intention of violating the license, but are later exposed to have used GPL code and are shamed into open sourcing it. At the end of the day, the user only has freedoms to the code that the developer chooses to grant. Whether this is by choosing to use GPL code in their project and making it GPL as well, using BSD code in their project and making it BSD as well, or not using GPL code (but possibly BSD code) and not making their work open source.