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Because everyone* knows JavaScript. I'd wager that the vast majority of professional software engineers work on the web, or very close to the web, and JavaScrip

Because everyone* knows JavaScript. I'd wager that the vast majority of professional software engineers work on the web, or very close to the web, and JavaScript is the lingua franca of the web. I mean just look at the front page of Hacker News on any given week. It's full of talk of JavaScript and new JavaScript libraries and new things to do in JavaScript. When you think about how many more people this can reach without them having to learn yet another language for a very specific thing, it makes sense. *hyperbole, please forgive me for being not being completely literal.

10098 13y ago
Correction - everyone thinks that they know Javascript. It's a more twisted language than it appears.
- hrabago 13y ago
  It's still more approachable though than C or Lua where only some people think they know it.
  - 14113 13y ago
    And arduino is even more approachable again.
    - smilekzs 13y ago
      Don't you forget that Arduino is C++.
      - 14113 13y ago
        And? That's brilliant, as it provides some progression after learning the language! Once you're confident with Arduino, you can move onto C++, from there ASM, etc...
nakkiel 13y ago
Very nice analogy (the lingua franca). The state of CS and the convergence we're seeing toward the web worries me though.
- coreyja 13y ago
  Can I ask why it worries you? Honestly just curious. Is it the performance hits of more levels of abstraction? Or fear of all data being in the "cloud"?
  - 14113 13y ago
    Personally it worries me because people can build whatever they want and call themselves "programmers". It encourages a state in the industry when knowing about data structures, hardware, turing machines or the other fundamentals of computer science are considered unecessary. Perhaps they are, from a business standpoint. However, it will eventually inhibit growth of the discipline as a whole. A common rebuttal to that is "it allows people to get into programming more easily". I personally think this is horseshit. There are a multitude of ways to get started with programming, and javascript is in many ways the one that teaches the worst practices and patterns of them all.
    - coreyja 13y ago
      I understand where you are coming from, and I don't like the "it allows people to get into programming more easily" excuse either. But I don't really think it will inhibit growth. I think that it is more likely just to create two main groups of people that call themselves programmers. The people that know HTML and jQuery and the actual programmers. I don't think it will do anything to the growth of real programming, it just might mean we get lots of people calling themselves programmers who really aren't. But that happens already.
      - 14113 13y ago
        I think that segregation in of itself can be dangerous too though. People will get stuck in the web programmer mindset, and never progress if they're interested in anything else.
fsniper 13y ago
Everybody thinks they know javascript, but on the contrary nobody actually knows it. It's a very twisted and powerful language. It has many quirks and many unknowns. Most of the time if one thinks s/he knows javascript, actually s/he knows a higher level abstraction library and DOM built on javascript like Jquery.
- polarix 13y ago
  Some people do know javascript. Implementations differ, but are getting more standardized as time goes on. Without the DOM and browser environment APIs, it gets a lot simpler. Do you think fewer people actually know javascript than actually know C++?
  - 14113 13y ago
    C++ is a bad example. C itself is mindblowinly complex, and C++ layers more on top of that. A better example might be Python, or possibly Lua. Languages that have been designed, rather than grown organically, unlike C++/C/Javascript.
    - naunga 13y ago
      C++ was grown organically? I think Bjarne Stroustrup would disagree.
      - 14113 13y ago
        By that I'd mean the way more and more complexity has been layered on over the years.
  - fsniper 13y ago
    Of course some people do know Javascript inside out, but how many?
- timmyelliot 13y ago
  Yeah, but a basic level of javascript is often all that's necessary. I had quite a few non-developers on my team, who knew enough javascript to have a "good enough" idea what was going on with the code, without having to bug me all the time.
blackhole 13y ago
I may know javascript, but my god I wish I didn't have to.
- javis 13y ago
  Many people do enjoy writing JavaScript and view it as just as good as Python and others.
  - PommeDeTerre 13y ago
    I've dealt with these kind of programmers on numerous occasions. While they may claim to know other programming languages, they usually don't know much about them at all, in reality. If they do know another language, it's PHP, which is just about as bad as JavaScript in most respects. Any programmer who has real experience with a variety of different programming languages will become very aware of how inferior JavaScript inherently is. JavaScript's problems go much beyond the quirks or oddities we see with programming languages in general. They're severe deficiencies (the lack of proper modules or namespacing, and the lack of proper class-based OO), or inexcusably stupid design flaws (semicolon insertion, its broken scoping rules, its broken type system, its broken prototype-based OO, its broken comparison operators, and so on). No intelligent, experienced, self-respecting programmer will want anything to do with such a ridiculously flawed and broken language. They surely will not see it as good as Python or any other language that isn't rife with the unjustifiable stupidity that permeates every aspect of JavaScript.
    - driverdan 13y ago
      What a bunch of pompous bullshit. From what you've said it seems you've never met a talented JS programmer.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        Do they exist?!
      - PommeDeTerre 13y ago
kybernetyk 13y ago
> I'd wager that the vast majority of professional software engineers work on the web Yes, a majority of prof. software engineers who work for internet companies work on the web. But then there's also stuff like embedded, systems, databases (not the ones you hook up to some scripting language to generate html), medical, aerospace, industrial processes, etc. The software industry is huge and only a small part of it is web related. > I mean just look at the front page of Hacker News It's like assuming San Francisco was a model for all other cities on this planet. It's all about your local bubble. For you maybe really it looks like everyone (including your local coffeeshop owner) could win a JS hackathon. But for me I barely know an engineer who's fluent in JavaScript. Everything is C++ here.

10098 13y ago

Correction - everyone thinks that they know Javascript. It's a more twisted language than it appears.

hrabago 13y ago
It's still more approachable though than C or Lua where only some people think they know it.
- 14113 13y ago
  And arduino is even more approachable again.
  - smilekzs 13y ago
    Don't you forget that Arduino is C++.
    - 14113 13y ago
      And? That's brilliant, as it provides some progression after learning the language! Once you're confident with Arduino, you can move onto C++, from there ASM, etc...

nakkiel 13y ago

Very nice analogy (the lingua franca). The state of CS and the convergence we're seeing toward the web worries me though.

coreyja 13y ago
Can I ask why it worries you? Honestly just curious. Is it the performance hits of more levels of abstraction? Or fear of all data being in the "cloud"?
- 14113 13y ago
  Personally it worries me because people can build whatever they want and call themselves "programmers". It encourages a state in the industry when knowing about data structures, hardware, turing machines or the other fundamentals of computer science are considered unecessary. Perhaps they are, from a business standpoint. However, it will eventually inhibit growth of the discipline as a whole. A common rebuttal to that is "it allows people to get into programming more easily". I personally think this is horseshit. There are a multitude of ways to get started with programming, and javascript is in many ways the one that teaches the worst practices and patterns of them all.
  - coreyja 13y ago
    I understand where you are coming from, and I don't like the "it allows people to get into programming more easily" excuse either. But I don't really think it will inhibit growth. I think that it is more likely just to create two main groups of people that call themselves programmers. The people that know HTML and jQuery and the actual programmers. I don't think it will do anything to the growth of real programming, it just might mean we get lots of people calling themselves programmers who really aren't. But that happens already.
    - 14113 13y ago
      I think that segregation in of itself can be dangerous too though. People will get stuck in the web programmer mindset, and never progress if they're interested in anything else.

fsniper 13y ago

Everybody thinks they know javascript, but on the contrary nobody actually knows it. It's a very twisted and powerful language. It has many quirks and many unknowns. Most of the time if one thinks s/he knows javascript, actually s/he knows a higher level abstraction library and DOM built on javascript like Jquery.

polarix 13y ago
Some people do know javascript. Implementations differ, but are getting more standardized as time goes on. Without the DOM and browser environment APIs, it gets a lot simpler. Do you think fewer people actually know javascript than actually know C++?
- 14113 13y ago
  C++ is a bad example. C itself is mindblowinly complex, and C++ layers more on top of that. A better example might be Python, or possibly Lua. Languages that have been designed, rather than grown organically, unlike C++/C/Javascript.
  - naunga 13y ago
    C++ was grown organically? I think Bjarne Stroustrup would disagree.
    - 14113 13y ago
      By that I'd mean the way more and more complexity has been layered on over the years.
- fsniper 13y ago
  Of course some people do know Javascript inside out, but how many?
timmyelliot 13y ago
Yeah, but a basic level of javascript is often all that's necessary. I had quite a few non-developers on my team, who knew enough javascript to have a "good enough" idea what was going on with the code, without having to bug me all the time.

blackhole 13y ago

I may know javascript, but my god I wish I didn't have to.

javis 13y ago
Many people do enjoy writing JavaScript and view it as just as good as Python and others.
- PommeDeTerre 13y ago
  I've dealt with these kind of programmers on numerous occasions. While they may claim to know other programming languages, they usually don't know much about them at all, in reality. If they do know another language, it's PHP, which is just about as bad as JavaScript in most respects. Any programmer who has real experience with a variety of different programming languages will become very aware of how inferior JavaScript inherently is. JavaScript's problems go much beyond the quirks or oddities we see with programming languages in general. They're severe deficiencies (the lack of proper modules or namespacing, and the lack of proper class-based OO), or inexcusably stupid design flaws (semicolon insertion, its broken scoping rules, its broken type system, its broken prototype-based OO, its broken comparison operators, and so on). No intelligent, experienced, self-respecting programmer will want anything to do with such a ridiculously flawed and broken language. They surely will not see it as good as Python or any other language that isn't rife with the unjustifiable stupidity that permeates every aspect of JavaScript.
  - driverdan 13y ago
    What a bunch of pompous bullshit. From what you've said it seems you've never met a talented JS programmer.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      Do they exist?!
    - PommeDeTerre 13y ago

kybernetyk 13y ago

> I'd wager that the vast majority of professional software engineers work on the web Yes, a majority of prof. software engineers who work for internet companies work on the web. But then there's also stuff like embedded, systems, databases (not the ones you hook up to some scripting language to generate html), medical, aerospace, industrial processes, etc. The software industry is huge and only a small part of it is web related. > I mean just look at the front page of Hacker News It's like assuming San Francisco was a model for all other cities on this planet. It's all about your local bubble. For you maybe really it looks like everyone (including your local coffeeshop owner) could win a JS hackathon. But for me I barely know an engineer who's fluent in JavaScript. Everything is C++ here.