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The F-35 has EODAS for spherical optical threat detection vs OLS front only on a Su-35 Flanker. Also, a Su-35 Flanker cant fire a missile at 50km without radar

The F-35 has EODAS for spherical optical threat detection vs OLS front only on a Su-35 Flanker. Also, a Su-35 Flanker cant fire a missile at 50km without radar lock, which would be difficult against a F-35. Even if they did fire a future Long-Range IR missile, the F-35 would detect and release flares to avoid the missile. Also, the kinetics of the missile would make it hard to track a F-35 during terminal phase. A F/A-18 has significant less range and time on station than F-35, with both internally fueled. The F/A-18 carries all weapons externally. As for your comment about stealth when the F-22 fires a missile, that assumes the F-22 doesn't change course after firing said missile. The F-22 would most likely turn away from the target, so they are not staying behind the missile relative to the target. Pretty much everything you said in this entire thread is wrong or at least misguided.

zobzu 13y ago
Sounds pretty much like the latest gens of the french rafale, except for the VTOL ;-)
- neurotech1 13y ago
  Rafale has reduced RCS and OLS(FLIR) but its not spherical either. Only the F-35 has spherical Electro-Optical systems. The Rafale also doesn't have mature A/G capability. Laser targeting and AESA radar have only recently been added to the Rafale F3 version.
6d0debc071 13y ago
> Also, a Su-35 Flanker cant fire a missile at 50km without radar lock, which would be difficult against a F-35. Even if they did fire a future Long-Range IR missile, the F-35 would detect and release flares to avoid the missile. Also, the kinetics of the missile would make it hard to track a F-35 during terminal phase. If you know how much heat is coming out, then you know roughly what thrust should be being produced. Couple that with known performance characteristics of the aircraft - i.e. aircraft don't just go from manoeuvring in one way to manoeuvring in another - and I would imagine you can tell the two apart fairly easily. After all, fighter jets don't, at least in the course of normal operation, just change their emission profile and fall out of the sky.
- neurotech1 13y ago
  Actually, A-6Bs on SAM suppression flights idled their engines and dived for the deck to avoid SAMs fired at them over Vietnam. There have been cases of MiG-21s and Mirage F1s releasing flares and successfully avoiding an AIM-9 missile fired at them from less than 10NM. The engaging fighter usually speeds towards the target and fires a second missile at closer range and shoots it down.
jasonwatkinspdx 13y ago
I stand behind what I've said and encourage you to dig into the open source docs on this. The RAND study is worth a start but there's a lot more, including English language materials from the SU design staff. "As for your comment about stealth when the F-22 fires a missile, that assumes the F-22 doesn't change course after firing said missile." Doesn't matter. Once you've got a launch flare that gives you a position fix to hand to the radar to do localized searching, dramatically weakening the likelihood of avoiding continued spotting.
- neurotech1 13y ago
  The 2008 RAND study has been widely debunked. Any idea of the RCS(X-band) of a F-22, or a F-35 for that matter? F-22: 0.0005 m2 F-35: 0.0015 m2 F-16C: 1.0m2 Su-27/Su-30 Flanker: 10.0m2 (China has this series and J-11 "Flankers" built domestically) Su-35 (Advanced) Flanker: 1.0m2 (Russia only) From the front a stealthy F-35 is basically noise against the background using X-Band radar. The latest L-Band radar on a Su-30MKI (Bars N011M) or Su-35 AESA couldn't actually track a stealth target but might get a faint return. My comment about the missile is that most missiles don't maintain full thrust the entire flight over 30NM - they have an initial boost to Mach 2.5+, then they coast at lower thrust until reaching the target. Newer missiles might have terminal boost but this would likely not be enough to hit an F-35 that sees the missile on EODAS. Very few Russian (or US made) missiles can shoot down a jet fighter at 20NM+ when that fighter detects the missile. I'm familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the Su-27 and Su-30. The Su-27 OLS is the best feature against a stealth adversary but its nowhere near as good as the F-35 EODAS. A F-35 would be almost impossible to track at 30NM using AESA radar much less a F-22. An F-15C with the latest APG-82 AESA can't track a F-22 for radar lock at 1000 ft range so what chance would a Su-30 have at 30NM. The SU-30 pilot would have to manually cue the OLS without radar. Auto-cueing a heat source would lock onto the flares. In around 60-90 seconds into the merge an F-35 would be within range for an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile shot while the Su-30 pilot is trying to cue the OLS manually. Most recent dogfights are over in under 2 minutes. Take a look at this documentary on the F-22 program. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sh1SAaJz0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sh1SAaJz0 And here is the RAND press release about the previous report you referenced. http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/09/25.html http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/09/25.html "Those reports are not accurate."

zobzu 13y ago

Sounds pretty much like the latest gens of the french rafale, except for the VTOL ;-)

neurotech1 13y ago
Rafale has reduced RCS and OLS(FLIR) but its not spherical either. Only the F-35 has spherical Electro-Optical systems. The Rafale also doesn't have mature A/G capability. Laser targeting and AESA radar have only recently been added to the Rafale F3 version.

6d0debc071 13y ago

> Also, a Su-35 Flanker cant fire a missile at 50km without radar lock, which would be difficult against a F-35. Even if they did fire a future Long-Range IR missile, the F-35 would detect and release flares to avoid the missile. Also, the kinetics of the missile would make it hard to track a F-35 during terminal phase. If you know how much heat is coming out, then you know roughly what thrust should be being produced. Couple that with known performance characteristics of the aircraft - i.e. aircraft don't just go from manoeuvring in one way to manoeuvring in another - and I would imagine you can tell the two apart fairly easily. After all, fighter jets don't, at least in the course of normal operation, just change their emission profile and fall out of the sky.

neurotech1 13y ago
Actually, A-6Bs on SAM suppression flights idled their engines and dived for the deck to avoid SAMs fired at them over Vietnam. There have been cases of MiG-21s and Mirage F1s releasing flares and successfully avoiding an AIM-9 missile fired at them from less than 10NM. The engaging fighter usually speeds towards the target and fires a second missile at closer range and shoots it down.

jasonwatkinspdx 13y ago

I stand behind what I've said and encourage you to dig into the open source docs on this. The RAND study is worth a start but there's a lot more, including English language materials from the SU design staff. "As for your comment about stealth when the F-22 fires a missile, that assumes the F-22 doesn't change course after firing said missile." Doesn't matter. Once you've got a launch flare that gives you a position fix to hand to the radar to do localized searching, dramatically weakening the likelihood of avoiding continued spotting.

neurotech1 13y ago
The 2008 RAND study has been widely debunked. Any idea of the RCS(X-band) of a F-22, or a F-35 for that matter? F-22: 0.0005 m2 F-35: 0.0015 m2 F-16C: 1.0m2 Su-27/Su-30 Flanker: 10.0m2 (China has this series and J-11 "Flankers" built domestically) Su-35 (Advanced) Flanker: 1.0m2 (Russia only) From the front a stealthy F-35 is basically noise against the background using X-Band radar. The latest L-Band radar on a Su-30MKI (Bars N011M) or Su-35 AESA couldn't actually track a stealth target but might get a faint return. My comment about the missile is that most missiles don't maintain full thrust the entire flight over 30NM - they have an initial boost to Mach 2.5+, then they coast at lower thrust until reaching the target. Newer missiles might have terminal boost but this would likely not be enough to hit an F-35 that sees the missile on EODAS. Very few Russian (or US made) missiles can shoot down a jet fighter at 20NM+ when that fighter detects the missile. I'm familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the Su-27 and Su-30. The Su-27 OLS is the best feature against a stealth adversary but its nowhere near as good as the F-35 EODAS. A F-35 would be almost impossible to track at 30NM using AESA radar much less a F-22. An F-15C with the latest APG-82 AESA can't track a F-22 for radar lock at 1000 ft range so what chance would a Su-30 have at 30NM. The SU-30 pilot would have to manually cue the OLS without radar. Auto-cueing a heat source would lock onto the flares. In around 60-90 seconds into the merge an F-35 would be within range for an AIM-9 Sidewinder missile shot while the Su-30 pilot is trying to cue the OLS manually. Most recent dogfights are over in under 2 minutes. Take a look at this documentary on the F-22 program. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sh1SAaJz0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Sh1SAaJz0 And here is the RAND press release about the previous report you referenced. http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/09/25.html http://www.rand.org/news/press/2008/09/25.html "Those reports are not accurate."