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Well, producing child pornography is a crime that is inherently victim-ful. (I do not include cartoon CP here) Producing drugs today happens to have victims be

by GuiA 13y ago

Well, producing child pornography is a crime that is inherently victim-ful. (I do not include cartoon CP here) Producing drugs today happens to have victims because of social policies etc, but those aren't inherent to the act of producing the drug. There are victims in the production of certain modern day goods (like electronics, clothes, etc.) but that doesn't mean that manufacturing iPhones necessarily leads to exploited Chinese workers. (although one could make the argument that selling iPhones at the price that they are sold for today cannot be realistically achieved without having Foxconn-style factories)

arcadeparade 13y ago
To quote Chomsky, 'ever product made in a capitalist society requires some level of coercion', from Chinese Iphones to Colombian cocaine.
- dnskw 13y ago
  That is a lie though. If I pick up a rock and somebody else does as well and we both use our hands to break off pieces of the rock (private means of production) and trade parts of the broken rocks with each no coercion occurred. That is technically a capitalist society without coercion.
  - Zidewinder 13y ago
    That is not a capitalist society by any definition I know of. Capitalism involves things like land ownership and interest-bearing loans, things that eventually lead to significant inequality in the distribution of resources. In a capitalist society, the other guy owns all the rocks, and if you try breaking one without his permission he might call the cops and have you jailed. But he's a reasonable guy, and if you're willing to break rocks for 14 hours a day, he'll pay you ten cents per piece, and then you can buy one back from him for thirty!
    - CamperBob2 13y ago
      Says the anarchist with his own 3 GHz computer.
- CamperBob2 13y ago
  Why doesn't he go ahead and state the logical extension of that, which is that every product made in any organized society requires some level of coercion? Chomsky is long on criticisms of capitalism but short on suggestions for replacing it.
  - arcadeparade 13y ago
    Illumination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxYth0ktPsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxYth0ktPsY
chrischen 13y ago
Like I said, regardless of whether it's inherently victim-ful, the sale and support still produces those victims in a consistent and predictable manner. Law enforcement knows drug consumers will continue to consume drugs and drug cartels will continue to be violent, so if they don't change their behavior, they are responsible for the violence they cause. From another perspective, drug consumers know drug cartels will continue to be violent, and that drug enforcement agencies will continue to enforce. From their perspective, if drug consumers don't change their consumption patterns, they are at fault for the violence. If none of the parties change their stance, everything stays the same. Consumers blame the government for drug crackdowns, the government blames consumers for consuming and supporting. Everyone is at fault. The practical way to look at this is how do you effect change with the least amount of effort? Is it easier to create legislation that change the government stance on drugs, or is it easier to do a public opinion campaign to change opinions on drug consumption? Seeing as how drug addicts are rational about their drug use (aside from dopamine=good), it's probably easier to pass legislation.

by GuiA 13y ago

arcadeparade 13y ago

To quote Chomsky, 'ever product made in a capitalist society requires some level of coercion', from Chinese Iphones to Colombian cocaine.

dnskw 13y ago
That is a lie though. If I pick up a rock and somebody else does as well and we both use our hands to break off pieces of the rock (private means of production) and trade parts of the broken rocks with each no coercion occurred. That is technically a capitalist society without coercion.
- Zidewinder 13y ago
  That is not a capitalist society by any definition I know of. Capitalism involves things like land ownership and interest-bearing loans, things that eventually lead to significant inequality in the distribution of resources. In a capitalist society, the other guy owns all the rocks, and if you try breaking one without his permission he might call the cops and have you jailed. But he's a reasonable guy, and if you're willing to break rocks for 14 hours a day, he'll pay you ten cents per piece, and then you can buy one back from him for thirty!
  - CamperBob2 13y ago
    Says the anarchist with his own 3 GHz computer.
CamperBob2 13y ago
Why doesn't he go ahead and state the logical extension of that, which is that every product made in any organized society requires some level of coercion? Chomsky is long on criticisms of capitalism but short on suggestions for replacing it.
- arcadeparade 13y ago
  Illumination: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxYth0ktPsY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxYth0ktPsY

chrischen 13y ago

Like I said, regardless of whether it's inherently victim-ful, the sale and support still produces those victims in a consistent and predictable manner. Law enforcement knows drug consumers will continue to consume drugs and drug cartels will continue to be violent, so if they don't change their behavior, they are responsible for the violence they cause. From another perspective, drug consumers know drug cartels will continue to be violent, and that drug enforcement agencies will continue to enforce. From their perspective, if drug consumers don't change their consumption patterns, they are at fault for the violence. If none of the parties change their stance, everything stays the same. Consumers blame the government for drug crackdowns, the government blames consumers for consuming and supporting. Everyone is at fault. The practical way to look at this is how do you effect change with the least amount of effort? Is it easier to create legislation that change the government stance on drugs, or is it easier to do a public opinion campaign to change opinions on drug consumption? Seeing as how drug addicts are rational about their drug use (aside from dopamine=good), it's probably easier to pass legislation.