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We seem to have maxed out HN's nesting limit, it takes hours for the reply button to become available... Thanks for discussing, it is actually very difficult t

by Tichy 13y ago

We seem to have maxed out HN's nesting limit, it takes hours for the reply button to become available... Thanks for discussing, it is actually very difficult to discuss feminism in the real world. Few feminists are willing to expose themselves to questions. As for the attraction thing, it is all explained by the different value/risk of sex for men and women (as I've mentioned before). Therefore women are usually the ones being approached - it's not an arbitrary gender thing, it follows from the different biological incentives. Maybe it sucks if you just want to be left alone atm, but to never be approached also sucks (I know because I am a guy). I know a lot of women who also like it if the see that people turn their heads for them on the street. And if things were really as bad as you describe it, women would walk differently on the street. They would all be scared and depressed, but that isn't the case. When that street harassment discussion flared up where I live a couple of months ago, many women spoke up and said they don't have a problem at all. Might be worth investigating why some have problems and others don't. Also I suspect feminism teaches women to consider every form of contacting to be "harassment" or a prelude to rape. That is just sad. A lot of interactions go unnecessarily bad because people just assume the worst. Of course there are probably a lot of unpleasant people out there (not only men). If it is too much perhaps you have to consider where you live - any place with too many people has a lot of downsides, for example I hate dog shit and it is everywhere in the big cities. I am sure you can also find bars where they throw out men who don't behave - and many bars are there for contacting other people, so you really have to choose if you don't like that. As for clothes - first of all, talking to somebody is not rape, not even close. So your reaction is really over the top. But also, it is a nice thought that people should be allowed to wear whatever they want, but it is obviously unrealistic. Clothes signal things, that is just the way it is. Would you go to work just in your underwear? Or what if men were to wear codpieces again, would that go down well with feminists? They complain about men sitting on benches with their legs spread all the time, so I think it is hypocritical to claim their clothes shouldn't matter. A lot of cultures have developed signals to tell wether women are available or not, btw., like wearing a specific piece of clothing. Would be debatable if something like that would be a nice invention for the Western world (appart from rings). Who really wants to talk to a woman that just wants to be left alone? It's hard enough to do even if you think she might like being talked to. Rape at parties: statistics show that men are at a much higher risk to be victims of violence than women (including rape). So no you won't get raped at every party just because you are a woman. Stay at home parents: you claim women are forced into staying at home, yet you wish you could be a stay-at-home dad? Doesn't add up. And how are women forced? Nobody is forced to marry or have children in this day and age (in the Western world). And is it really such a bad fate to stay at home and spend time with your kids? Feminists hate kids, but a lot of women actually like their kids... The reason women stay at home more often than men is because they have a higher claim to it. Don't know how to express it, but after going through 9 months of pregnancy and life threatening birthing pains, it would be quite weird to give up the kid they just produced investing everything they have and go back to work the next day. Women invest more in birth, therefore typically men compensate by working more to provide for the family. Exceptions support the rule... That is not suppression, that is just natural (I don't care if people do it in another way, I am saying there is a reason most people don't choose that). As for divorces, your articles jump to conclusion. It sounds as if there has been progress. But what about fathers who weren't even married? And if "mother spent more time with kid" is an argument, isn't that also unfair given that men often don't have the choice to work less? And just because most custody cases are resolved out of court doesn't imply the courts are not biased - the bias will factor in the decision to go to court.

quinnchr 13y ago
No I'm sorry, but the attraction thing has nothing to do with biology. It has everything to do with gender roles. The role of pursuer is intricately tied to traditional views of masculinity. Our gender roles are set up so that men are the pursuers and women are the pursued. Why is it in already committed couples the man almost always asks the woman to marry him? As a man I do get approached by women sometimes, and I agree it is really nice sometimes. If you'd like to be around strong assertive women who are willing to pursue men they are interested in, I suggest hanging out around feminists. Feminists are all about challenging traditional gender roles, redefining the relationship between pursuer and pursued to create equitable relationships based on mutual pursuit. I wasn't implying that all harassment leads to rape. I was explaining that we live in a culture where the traditional view of masculinity is tied to aggressive behavior, a society where the expectation is that if a woman dresses "sluttily" she's more likely to be raped. That is rape culture, the idea that men can't help but rape and that women are the one's responsible for stopping it. I'm well aware the statistics are worse for men, It is an issue and it deserves to be talked about, and in fact it's often a part of feminist discussion: http://thefeministwire.com/2013/03/feminist-anxiety-about-domestic-violence-against-men/ http://thefeministwire.com/2013/03/feminist-anxiety-about-do... But that has nothing to do with rape culture. Men aren't taught that they are going to be victims. Men are not taught not to drink too much at parties, they aren't taught not to go to parties by yourself, they aren't taught to never leave their drink unattended, etc... We teach all of these precautions to women, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes are by people they already know. We've created a culture where men are seen as rapists who just can't help themselves, and that women should expect and fear rape. That is rape culture, and that is what feminism seeks to dismantle. And no feminists don't consider all form of touching harassment, but they are pretty big on consent. I'm pretty sure if you ask first almost all forms of touching are ok, as long as the person consents. It's not that women are forced at gunpoint to be homemakers, it's the societal expectation that the women should be the primary caregivers. Talk to some women and ask them if they ever feel pressured by family, friends, or our culture to accept the role of homemaker. Women very often feel pressured to have kids, it's a very real thing. In couples with children where both parents work. Yes the man on average works more (about 5 hours more is the most recent stat I could find). But if you consider housework and childcare to be work (which feminists do, and I hope you do), women do significantly more work. And yes I agree that being the primary worker being apart of our traditional view of masculinity is unfair to men. Again, feminism seeks to break out of those gender roles so that men can feel comfortable choosing to work less and devoting more time to traditionally feminine roles. As for the sitting on benches thing, you'll find that on Tumblr, not in legitimate feminist discussion. And please don't say stuff like "Feminists hate kids" you just come across as hateful and ignorant by using such gross stereotypes.

by Tichy 13y ago

quinnchr 13y ago

No I'm sorry, but the attraction thing has nothing to do with biology. It has everything to do with gender roles. The role of pursuer is intricately tied to traditional views of masculinity. Our gender roles are set up so that men are the pursuers and women are the pursued. Why is it in already committed couples the man almost always asks the woman to marry him? As a man I do get approached by women sometimes, and I agree it is really nice sometimes. If you'd like to be around strong assertive women who are willing to pursue men they are interested in, I suggest hanging out around feminists. Feminists are all about challenging traditional gender roles, redefining the relationship between pursuer and pursued to create equitable relationships based on mutual pursuit. I wasn't implying that all harassment leads to rape. I was explaining that we live in a culture where the traditional view of masculinity is tied to aggressive behavior, a society where the expectation is that if a woman dresses "sluttily" she's more likely to be raped. That is rape culture, the idea that men can't help but rape and that women are the one's responsible for stopping it. I'm well aware the statistics are worse for men, It is an issue and it deserves to be talked about, and in fact it's often a part of feminist discussion: http://thefeministwire.com/2013/03/feminist-anxiety-about-domestic-violence-against-men/ http://thefeministwire.com/2013/03/feminist-anxiety-about-do... But that has nothing to do with rape culture. Men aren't taught that they are going to be victims. Men are not taught not to drink too much at parties, they aren't taught not to go to parties by yourself, they aren't taught to never leave their drink unattended, etc... We teach all of these precautions to women, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of rapes are by people they already know. We've created a culture where men are seen as rapists who just can't help themselves, and that women should expect and fear rape. That is rape culture, and that is what feminism seeks to dismantle. And no feminists don't consider all form of touching harassment, but they are pretty big on consent. I'm pretty sure if you ask first almost all forms of touching are ok, as long as the person consents. It's not that women are forced at gunpoint to be homemakers, it's the societal expectation that the women should be the primary caregivers. Talk to some women and ask them if they ever feel pressured by family, friends, or our culture to accept the role of homemaker. Women very often feel pressured to have kids, it's a very real thing. In couples with children where both parents work. Yes the man on average works more (about 5 hours more is the most recent stat I could find). But if you consider housework and childcare to be work (which feminists do, and I hope you do), women do significantly more work. And yes I agree that being the primary worker being apart of our traditional view of masculinity is unfair to men. Again, feminism seeks to break out of those gender roles so that men can feel comfortable choosing to work less and devoting more time to traditionally feminine roles. As for the sitting on benches thing, you'll find that on Tumblr, not in legitimate feminist discussion. And please don't say stuff like "Feminists hate kids" you just come across as hateful and ignorant by using such gross stereotypes.