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Things are moving quickly in Bootstrap-land. I'm not quite sure I would have called these "Release Candidates" though, given the number of functional changes to

Things are moving quickly in Bootstrap-land. I'm not quite sure I would have called these "Release Candidates" though, given the number of functional changes to the framework that have been happening/are lined up to happen. Still, that's likely due to my interpretation of an RC (feature-freeze). On a different note: I am a big fan of Bootstrap. Yes, there are tons of complaints from users about sites "looking like Bootstrap", but that's hardly a fault of the framework (at least they look passable). I've always found that some button customisation (easier in 3.0), changing the navbar (color, height, dropdowns) and tweaking the forms is the easiest path to getting a site that doesn't look like vanilla framework. And none of those things require much work or expertise: heck, just a change in height, a different nav-bar font + color go a long way as it is.

teknover 13y ago
Taking on the model of moving fast, breaking things no doubt. I am surprised by some of the inclusions such as overhauled grid system to include four tiers instead of the original three of RC1. To change something so fundamental does seem more like a beta feature than RC1 and no doubt people who've built 2x to 3x converters will be a little more anxious now. That said I'm sympathetic to the fact that if you're going to change fundamentals or pivot, now's the time. Looking forward to more releases and feature stability.
markdotto 13y ago
Yeah we probably should have called them betas, but I'm fine with using RC—beta sounds way less serious and we want folks to just go to town on this. It's helped a lot. And glad to hear you're a fan! <3
- knite 13y ago
  I agree with the parent. The term "Release Candidate" comes with certain expectations, including but not limited to: feature freeze, API freeze, and few(er) serious bugs. Calling Bootstrap 3 in its current state an RC is misleading to developers and may adversely impact the project's reputation. With that said, I've been using the 2.x releases on multiple projects over the past year. Thanks for all of your hard work!
- eflowers 13y ago
  I've been using the WIP for a few months and the changes in RC2 are looking really great. I am curious as to what the ramifications will be on the learning curve of people really making the most of the new grid system and how it can be way more dynamic by calling different columns at different snap points. I didn't really "get it" right away, but after figuring it out I can see how it's a huge step forward.
  - dolphenstein 13y ago
    I've been upgrading one of my apps to RC1 the past 3 days. I think it's great! Lot more easier to get it responsive. I was always having troubles with nested columns on the previous version. Things seem to work a lot more better now! Was about to tackle an issue about getting column structure to remain same on phone devices but looks like RC2 takes care of that with .col-xs !
- yesimahuman 13y ago
  The rapid rate of change has definitely made getting Jetstrap to support the latest releases harder, but in general it's been a huge pleasure to use and MUCH easier to extend and customize. Great work! :)
sprobertson 13y ago
On your note: The great part about having stylesheets that cascade is exactly that. But luckily for the non-customizers, it seems (at least at first glance) that some of the flatness of BS3 might actually mitigate some of the sameness - perhaps because there are fewer particular styles (e.g. those obviously BS2 button gradients) to distinguish it by?
corresation 13y ago
Yes, there are tons of complaints from users about sites "looking like Bootstrap" These aren't complaints by users. These are complaints by developers and designers who often feel a little...perhaps...threatened by bootstrap and things like it. Okay, I guess it could be users if you cater to those groups, but for the overwhelming majority of cases users don't know and don't care. They find a clean, modern-looking site that offers the functionality and information that they need, and that's all they really care about.
- ethanbond 13y ago
  I don't think any designer feels "threatened" by Bootstrap. Almost all front-end devs use either Bootstrap or something similar (I'm a fan of Foundation personally). The complaints probably are from devs and designers, but that doesn't mean users like Bootstrap. Devs and designers complain because we know enough to recognize, and complain about, the source of all the monotonous websites coming out these days.
  - rads 13y ago
    Bootstrap isn't the source of monotonous websites. It just makes them look better.
    - ethanbond 13y ago
      Yes it is. It's not the source of BAD websites, nor ugly ones. But as far as just plain monotony, it's Bootstrap that allows bad/ugly/designerless websites to look so similar to each other. Source of bad design? No. Source of bad taste? No. Source of monotony? Yes, just out of convenience.
      - dasmoth 13y ago
        For native applications (whether desktop or mobile), building interfaces from a consistent set of components is usually considered a good thing. Why should every web application look different? If it was up to me, the browser default styles would be something closer to Bootstrap (and actually implement stuff like the <menu> element), so you can build a decent looking site with touching CSS at all.
netcan 13y ago
Is "looking like Bootstrap" really a problem? Why do webapps/sites really need to look different from one another? As long as they look good, are easy to use and have recognizable branding, what is the problem? Say HN used bootstrap with a few small tweaks for colour so it was still identifiably HN. Also your webmail client, hotel booking site & social network. What harm? Isn't familiar look and feel comforting to users? Is there a good reason for the aversion to looking similar or is it just a product of the history of the web, with everyone doing their own thing?
- jfoster 13y ago
  Some sites look nicer than your average bootstrap site, but there are so many with ugly designs that don't scale down to mobile devices well at all. If the worst you ever came across on the web was "yet another bootstrap site" that seems it would be a huge step forward.
eCa 13y ago
My complaint is not the name (though the changelog RC1->RC2 is a bit much). I find it strange to only have the RC downloadable from the main page, the way I see it the currently stable release should be the main download and standard documentation. By doing it this way there is a risk of of users within BS3 and also possibly slower uptake in apprehension of other potentially incombatible changes in upcoming BS3 releases.
- gps408 13y ago
  Actually they only have the latest git snapshot available from the main page. It's not even RC2.

teknover 13y ago

Taking on the model of moving fast, breaking things no doubt. I am surprised by some of the inclusions such as overhauled grid system to include four tiers instead of the original three of RC1. To change something so fundamental does seem more like a beta feature than RC1 and no doubt people who've built 2x to 3x converters will be a little more anxious now. That said I'm sympathetic to the fact that if you're going to change fundamentals or pivot, now's the time. Looking forward to more releases and feature stability.

markdotto 13y ago

Yeah we probably should have called them betas, but I'm fine with using RC—beta sounds way less serious and we want folks to just go to town on this. It's helped a lot. And glad to hear you're a fan! <3

knite 13y ago
I agree with the parent. The term "Release Candidate" comes with certain expectations, including but not limited to: feature freeze, API freeze, and few(er) serious bugs. Calling Bootstrap 3 in its current state an RC is misleading to developers and may adversely impact the project's reputation. With that said, I've been using the 2.x releases on multiple projects over the past year. Thanks for all of your hard work!
eflowers 13y ago
I've been using the WIP for a few months and the changes in RC2 are looking really great. I am curious as to what the ramifications will be on the learning curve of people really making the most of the new grid system and how it can be way more dynamic by calling different columns at different snap points. I didn't really "get it" right away, but after figuring it out I can see how it's a huge step forward.
- dolphenstein 13y ago
  I've been upgrading one of my apps to RC1 the past 3 days. I think it's great! Lot more easier to get it responsive. I was always having troubles with nested columns on the previous version. Things seem to work a lot more better now! Was about to tackle an issue about getting column structure to remain same on phone devices but looks like RC2 takes care of that with .col-xs !
yesimahuman 13y ago
The rapid rate of change has definitely made getting Jetstrap to support the latest releases harder, but in general it's been a huge pleasure to use and MUCH easier to extend and customize. Great work! :)

sprobertson 13y ago

On your note: The great part about having stylesheets that cascade is exactly that. But luckily for the non-customizers, it seems (at least at first glance) that some of the flatness of BS3 might actually mitigate some of the sameness - perhaps because there are fewer particular styles (e.g. those obviously BS2 button gradients) to distinguish it by?

corresation 13y ago

Yes, there are tons of complaints from users about sites "looking like Bootstrap" These aren't complaints by users. These are complaints by developers and designers who often feel a little...perhaps...threatened by bootstrap and things like it. Okay, I guess it could be users if you cater to those groups, but for the overwhelming majority of cases users don't know and don't care. They find a clean, modern-looking site that offers the functionality and information that they need, and that's all they really care about.

ethanbond 13y ago
I don't think any designer feels "threatened" by Bootstrap. Almost all front-end devs use either Bootstrap or something similar (I'm a fan of Foundation personally). The complaints probably are from devs and designers, but that doesn't mean users like Bootstrap. Devs and designers complain because we know enough to recognize, and complain about, the source of all the monotonous websites coming out these days.
- rads 13y ago
  Bootstrap isn't the source of monotonous websites. It just makes them look better.
  - ethanbond 13y ago
    Yes it is. It's not the source of BAD websites, nor ugly ones. But as far as just plain monotony, it's Bootstrap that allows bad/ugly/designerless websites to look so similar to each other. Source of bad design? No. Source of bad taste? No. Source of monotony? Yes, just out of convenience.
    - dasmoth 13y ago
      For native applications (whether desktop or mobile), building interfaces from a consistent set of components is usually considered a good thing. Why should every web application look different? If it was up to me, the browser default styles would be something closer to Bootstrap (and actually implement stuff like the <menu> element), so you can build a decent looking site with touching CSS at all.

netcan 13y ago

Is "looking like Bootstrap" really a problem? Why do webapps/sites really need to look different from one another? As long as they look good, are easy to use and have recognizable branding, what is the problem? Say HN used bootstrap with a few small tweaks for colour so it was still identifiably HN. Also your webmail client, hotel booking site & social network. What harm? Isn't familiar look and feel comforting to users? Is there a good reason for the aversion to looking similar or is it just a product of the history of the web, with everyone doing their own thing?

jfoster 13y ago
Some sites look nicer than your average bootstrap site, but there are so many with ugly designs that don't scale down to mobile devices well at all. If the worst you ever came across on the web was "yet another bootstrap site" that seems it would be a huge step forward.

eCa 13y ago

My complaint is not the name (though the changelog RC1->RC2 is a bit much). I find it strange to only have the RC downloadable from the main page, the way I see it the currently stable release should be the main download and standard documentation. By doing it this way there is a risk of of users within BS3 and also possibly slower uptake in apprehension of other potentially incombatible changes in upcoming BS3 releases.

gps408 13y ago
Actually they only have the latest git snapshot available from the main page. It's not even RC2.