7 ms·

"you can absolutely choose your gender" I've been reading the intro of the book you recommended. Frankly, that gender discussion seems extremely weird and trit

by Tichy 13y ago

"you can absolutely choose your gender" I've been reading the intro of the book you recommended. Frankly, that gender discussion seems extremely weird and trite. Why don't you just behave the way you like to, rather than get lost in philosophical mazes about gender? As you say, if you can choose your gender, why don't you just do so and be done with it? So what exactly makes your friends be the victim of being approached? Are they men who want to become women? What attracts the men, boobs, or their clothing? I fully understand that it can be annoying to be approached all the time. However, it is the flip side of being attractive, which brings lots of advantages. Curiously, few industries cater to making people less attractive, a lot cater to making them more attractive. So perhaps your friends who want to be left alone are not very typical. Yes, it is unfair that women are more attractive than men (as I elaborated in another comment, they have a much higher biological value than men, hence they are being sought out). But it has upsides and downsides (as has being a man). I am pretty sure you can also exert at least some control over the amount of street hassling you get by the way you present yourself. I can assure you that not every man who wants to sleep with a woman approaches that woman. And not every dude approaches every woman in a bar. Objectification is just a nonsense concept, sorry. That's pure ideology. What is it even supposed to mean? Attraction isn't real unless you recite poems together? We had the pay discussion already, don't know enough about your friend to comment. As for your divorce laws, that document is rather long, I couldn't read it all yet. If what you say is true I suspect you have found an outlier state. Also perhaps men who seek custody are the ones whose lawyers already said they have a chance because of the way their case is structured, it doesn't say anything about the real proportion of men who get custody. As for rape, I have no idea if it is better to fight back or not - I'd recommend asking experts about that. I know that we don't live in a rape culture, though - as I've also explained in another comment already.

quinnchr 13y ago
She's a victim of being approached all the time, because she presents as a woman not because she's attractive. Subjectively speaking I'm a much more attractive man than she is a woman, yet I get approached by women very rarely, and she gets approached by men constantly. And not in a good way, men will come up to her tell her disgusting stuff about what they want to do to her and not leave her alone when she's obviously not interested. If you honestly think you can just chose your gender and be done with it, I again urge you to meet some transgendered people and talk to them about their experiences in transitioning. My friend wanted to change her name after she transitioned, and it took 3 tries with the court system. The first judge recused himself because he never granted name changes for transgendered people, the second judge made my friend cry on the stand by accusing her of just wanting to use women's restrooms so she could harass "real" women, and the third one finally granted a name change after months of trying. But, if you want to change your name to "Tyrannosaurus Rex" no problem: http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1-aff3-0019bb2963f4.html http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1... As for the divorce issue. The most recent nationwide data I could find says it's a 50/50 split when men seek custody: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-getting-custody-in-divorce/?_r=0 http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-g... Furthermore, the reason men are awarded custody less, is not because of bias in the court it's because men choose to seek custody less. Look at the statistics here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myt... Married men spend half as much time with their children as married women. Our culture dictates that women are the ones responsible for parenting, thus they are expected to take time out of their career for children, in divorce proceeding it's expected that they are the primary caregiver. Women being subjugated to the role of homemaker is a result of patriarchy and absolutely harms men too. I would love to live in a world where men spend just as much time with their children, where it's ok to be a stay at home dad, where it's expected that men will take a break from their career to care for their children. The fact is we don't live in that world, we live in a world where being a homemaker is intricately tied to the gender role of women. Feminists want to change that, and I suspect you have more in common with feminists than you would like to think. Feminists are all about extending, as you say the "privileges" they enjoy, to everyone. And by the way, your comment is a perfect example of rape culture. You suggest that she should alter the way she presents herself so she doesn't get harassed. By saying that you are acknowledging the idea that men are rapists and women are victims. Why is it expected that she should change her appearance if she doesn't want to be harassed? Why is it accepted that men will harass women if they find them attractive? Why is it accepted that if a woman goes to a party and gets too drunk, that there's a good chance she'll be raped? I've been too drunk at many parties and not once have I had to even think about being raped. Feminists would argue that all men are not rapists, another point I suspect you would agree with feminists on. I run around my neighborhood all the time in nothing but shoes and shorts, yet I've never been harassed or approached once. I guarantee you that is simply not possible for a woman to do. Of course you are allowed to be attracted to someone based on how they look. That's not objectification. As a man, in my personal experience about 90% of the compliments I receive are related to my accomplishments or general intelligence, the other 10% are about my appearance. That 10% generally come from people I'm already intimate with, I can't honestly think of more than about 5 instances in my life when my appearance was complemented by a stranger. Do you really think that's true for women? I urge you to talk to the women you know and try to learn about their experiences. Anyway, I'm glad you've at least tried to read the information I've given you, and you seem to be at least a little bit open minded, which I appreciate. I don't want to keep belaboring points, but you seem willing to challenge your worldview, so if there are any other feminist stereotypes you'd like me to dispel or you are interested in learning more about feminism you are more than welcome to contact me at the email in my profile and I'd be happy to point you towards some good resources.
- Tichy 13y ago
  We seem to have maxed out HN's nesting limit, it takes hours for the reply button to become available... Thanks for discussing, it is actually very difficult to discuss feminism in the real world. Few feminists are willing to expose themselves to questions. As for the attraction thing, it is all explained by the different value/risk of sex for men and women (as I've mentioned before). Therefore women are usually the ones being approached - it's not an arbitrary gender thing, it follows from the different biological incentives. Maybe it sucks if you just want to be left alone atm, but to never be approached also sucks (I know because I am a guy). I know a lot of women who also like it if the see that people turn their heads for them on the street. And if things were really as bad as you describe it, women would walk differently on the street. They would all be scared and depressed, but that isn't the case. When that street harassment discussion flared up where I live a couple of months ago, many women spoke up and said they don't have a problem at all. Might be worth investigating why some have problems and others don't. Also I suspect feminism teaches women to consider every form of contacting to be "harassment" or a prelude to rape. That is just sad. A lot of interactions go unnecessarily bad because people just assume the worst. Of course there are probably a lot of unpleasant people out there (not only men). If it is too much perhaps you have to consider where you live - any place with too many people has a lot of downsides, for example I hate dog shit and it is everywhere in the big cities. I am sure you can also find bars where they throw out men who don't behave - and many bars are there for contacting other people, so you really have to choose if you don't like that. As for clothes - first of all, talking to somebody is not rape, not even close. So your reaction is really over the top. But also, it is a nice thought that people should be allowed to wear whatever they want, but it is obviously unrealistic. Clothes signal things, that is just the way it is. Would you go to work just in your underwear? Or what if men were to wear codpieces again, would that go down well with feminists? They complain about men sitting on benches with their legs spread all the time, so I think it is hypocritical to claim their clothes shouldn't matter. A lot of cultures have developed signals to tell wether women are available or not, btw., like wearing a specific piece of clothing. Would be debatable if something like that would be a nice invention for the Western world (appart from rings). Who really wants to talk to a woman that just wants to be left alone? It's hard enough to do even if you think she might like being talked to. Rape at parties: statistics show that men are at a much higher risk to be victims of violence than women (including rape). So no you won't get raped at every party just because you are a woman. Stay at home parents: you claim women are forced into staying at home, yet you wish you could be a stay-at-home dad? Doesn't add up. And how are women forced? Nobody is forced to marry or have children in this day and age (in the Western world). And is it really such a bad fate to stay at home and spend time with your kids? Feminists hate kids, but a lot of women actually like their kids... The reason women stay at home more often than men is because they have a higher claim to it. Don't know how to express it, but after going through 9 months of pregnancy and life threatening birthing pains, it would be quite weird to give up the kid they just produced investing everything they have and go back to work the next day. Women invest more in birth, therefore typically men compensate by working more to provide for the family. Exceptions support the rule... That is not suppression, that is just natural (I don't care if people do it in another way, I am saying there is a reason most people don't choose that). As for divorces, your articles jump to conclusion. It sounds as if there has been progress. But what about fathers who weren't even married? And if "mother spent more time with kid" is an argument, isn't that also unfair given that men often don't have the choice to work less? And just because most custody cases are resolved out of court doesn't imply the courts are not biased - the bias will factor in the decision to go to court.

by Tichy 13y ago

quinnchr 13y ago

She's a victim of being approached all the time, because she presents as a woman not because she's attractive. Subjectively speaking I'm a much more attractive man than she is a woman, yet I get approached by women very rarely, and she gets approached by men constantly. And not in a good way, men will come up to her tell her disgusting stuff about what they want to do to her and not leave her alone when she's obviously not interested. If you honestly think you can just chose your gender and be done with it, I again urge you to meet some transgendered people and talk to them about their experiences in transitioning. My friend wanted to change her name after she transitioned, and it took 3 tries with the court system. The first judge recused himself because he never granted name changes for transgendered people, the second judge made my friend cry on the stand by accusing her of just wanting to use women's restrooms so she could harass "real" women, and the third one finally granted a name change after months of trying. But, if you want to change your name to "Tyrannosaurus Rex" no problem: http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1-aff3-0019bb2963f4.html http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1... As for the divorce issue. The most recent nationwide data I could find says it's a 50/50 split when men seek custody: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-getting-custody-in-divorce/?_r=0 http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-g... Furthermore, the reason men are awarded custody less, is not because of bias in the court it's because men choose to seek custody less. Look at the statistics here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myt... Married men spend half as much time with their children as married women. Our culture dictates that women are the ones responsible for parenting, thus they are expected to take time out of their career for children, in divorce proceeding it's expected that they are the primary caregiver. Women being subjugated to the role of homemaker is a result of patriarchy and absolutely harms men too. I would love to live in a world where men spend just as much time with their children, where it's ok to be a stay at home dad, where it's expected that men will take a break from their career to care for their children. The fact is we don't live in that world, we live in a world where being a homemaker is intricately tied to the gender role of women. Feminists want to change that, and I suspect you have more in common with feminists than you would like to think. Feminists are all about extending, as you say the "privileges" they enjoy, to everyone. And by the way, your comment is a perfect example of rape culture. You suggest that she should alter the way she presents herself so she doesn't get harassed. By saying that you are acknowledging the idea that men are rapists and women are victims. Why is it expected that she should change her appearance if she doesn't want to be harassed? Why is it accepted that men will harass women if they find them attractive? Why is it accepted that if a woman goes to a party and gets too drunk, that there's a good chance she'll be raped? I've been too drunk at many parties and not once have I had to even think about being raped. Feminists would argue that all men are not rapists, another point I suspect you would agree with feminists on. I run around my neighborhood all the time in nothing but shoes and shorts, yet I've never been harassed or approached once. I guarantee you that is simply not possible for a woman to do. Of course you are allowed to be attracted to someone based on how they look. That's not objectification. As a man, in my personal experience about 90% of the compliments I receive are related to my accomplishments or general intelligence, the other 10% are about my appearance. That 10% generally come from people I'm already intimate with, I can't honestly think of more than about 5 instances in my life when my appearance was complemented by a stranger. Do you really think that's true for women? I urge you to talk to the women you know and try to learn about their experiences. Anyway, I'm glad you've at least tried to read the information I've given you, and you seem to be at least a little bit open minded, which I appreciate. I don't want to keep belaboring points, but you seem willing to challenge your worldview, so if there are any other feminist stereotypes you'd like me to dispel or you are interested in learning more about feminism you are more than welcome to contact me at the email in my profile and I'd be happy to point you towards some good resources.

Tichy 13y ago
We seem to have maxed out HN's nesting limit, it takes hours for the reply button to become available... Thanks for discussing, it is actually very difficult to discuss feminism in the real world. Few feminists are willing to expose themselves to questions. As for the attraction thing, it is all explained by the different value/risk of sex for men and women (as I've mentioned before). Therefore women are usually the ones being approached - it's not an arbitrary gender thing, it follows from the different biological incentives. Maybe it sucks if you just want to be left alone atm, but to never be approached also sucks (I know because I am a guy). I know a lot of women who also like it if the see that people turn their heads for them on the street. And if things were really as bad as you describe it, women would walk differently on the street. They would all be scared and depressed, but that isn't the case. When that street harassment discussion flared up where I live a couple of months ago, many women spoke up and said they don't have a problem at all. Might be worth investigating why some have problems and others don't. Also I suspect feminism teaches women to consider every form of contacting to be "harassment" or a prelude to rape. That is just sad. A lot of interactions go unnecessarily bad because people just assume the worst. Of course there are probably a lot of unpleasant people out there (not only men). If it is too much perhaps you have to consider where you live - any place with too many people has a lot of downsides, for example I hate dog shit and it is everywhere in the big cities. I am sure you can also find bars where they throw out men who don't behave - and many bars are there for contacting other people, so you really have to choose if you don't like that. As for clothes - first of all, talking to somebody is not rape, not even close. So your reaction is really over the top. But also, it is a nice thought that people should be allowed to wear whatever they want, but it is obviously unrealistic. Clothes signal things, that is just the way it is. Would you go to work just in your underwear? Or what if men were to wear codpieces again, would that go down well with feminists? They complain about men sitting on benches with their legs spread all the time, so I think it is hypocritical to claim their clothes shouldn't matter. A lot of cultures have developed signals to tell wether women are available or not, btw., like wearing a specific piece of clothing. Would be debatable if something like that would be a nice invention for the Western world (appart from rings). Who really wants to talk to a woman that just wants to be left alone? It's hard enough to do even if you think she might like being talked to. Rape at parties: statistics show that men are at a much higher risk to be victims of violence than women (including rape). So no you won't get raped at every party just because you are a woman. Stay at home parents: you claim women are forced into staying at home, yet you wish you could be a stay-at-home dad? Doesn't add up. And how are women forced? Nobody is forced to marry or have children in this day and age (in the Western world). And is it really such a bad fate to stay at home and spend time with your kids? Feminists hate kids, but a lot of women actually like their kids... The reason women stay at home more often than men is because they have a higher claim to it. Don't know how to express it, but after going through 9 months of pregnancy and life threatening birthing pains, it would be quite weird to give up the kid they just produced investing everything they have and go back to work the next day. Women invest more in birth, therefore typically men compensate by working more to provide for the family. Exceptions support the rule... That is not suppression, that is just natural (I don't care if people do it in another way, I am saying there is a reason most people don't choose that). As for divorces, your articles jump to conclusion. It sounds as if there has been progress. But what about fathers who weren't even married? And if "mother spent more time with kid" is an argument, isn't that also unfair given that men often don't have the choice to work less? And just because most custody cases are resolved out of court doesn't imply the courts are not biased - the bias will factor in the decision to go to court.