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To use his language, I agree that the "whole thing fucked", but I also think it's fun. I enjoy the fact that things are a challenge and sometimes quirky. Sure,

by aroman 13y ago

To use his language, I agree that the "whole thing fucked", but I also think it's fun. I enjoy the fact that things are a challenge and sometimes quirky. Sure, down in the trenches it makes you want to pull your hear out. And the world would probably be more productive if software interfaces and programming languages were completely frictionless. But it would also make programming, to me, less fun, challenging, and enjoyable. We are imperfect beings living in an imperfect world, and I don't think changing the status of either or the former or the latter would create the nirvana ry is alluding to.

coldtea 13y ago
>To use his language, I agree that the "whole thing fucked", but I also think it's fun. I enjoy the fact that things are a challenge and sometimes quirky. The problem is that the wrong things are fucked and that's neither challenging nor fun. E.g configuring some system so you can get your software built correctly is neither fun not challenging. It's merely tedious busy-work. Actually solving problems, that's the fun part.
- aroman 13y ago
  That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with. Not everyone sees configuring a system as "merely tedious busy-work". I for one like setting things up. It might be frustrating, but there's also an enjoyable element of accomplishment when you overcome something frustrating. It might not be the kind of fun and challenging you're looking for, but please, try not to state state opinion as fact. One man's tedium is another man's pleasure, as much as I too enjoy solving the bigger-picture problems. There's a reason both Gentoo and Arch exist :)
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with. Not everyone sees configuring a system as "merely tedious busy-work". I for one like setting things up. And what you're saying is precisely what I'm disagreeing with. I'm sure there are people that like those things (mostly beginner's with Unix and such, tinkerers etc). It's a form of passtime. That doesn't mean it's challenging in any creative way. It's a boring ass brain puzzle that tons of people are solving again and again. The sense of "accomplishment" of getting the dependencies to build X right, might be valid if you just started building things and getting to know how compilers, libs etc work, but it's grows old very quickly for normal people and it's a false accomplishment after that initial stage. Actually saying you enjoy that is like saying you like boilerplate code, because that's exactly what it amounts to. >It might not be the kind of fun and challenging you're looking for, but please, try not to state state opinion as fact. Sure, you can find people that like everything, even the most boring ass shit. I'm sure there are people that enjoy calculating logarithms manually too. But I wouldn't call such bizarro outlier fun as fun in the accepted sense. But it's a fact (I've seldom seen anyone state the opposite, tons of texts from Stack Overflow to blog posts support this) that most programmers/hackers tear their hair out to get rid of those "fun" tedious configuration/setup/figuring dependencies etc work and move to the real part. I've actually never read an interview with a hero programmer where he said that he likes those parts of programming -- but have read tons of those that say the exact opposite, from Alan Kay to Jamie Zawinsky. Actually a large part of programming is exactly about removing (automating) those tedious parts.
  - ulisesrmzroche 13y ago
    Yeah, but what about us who are building software to make money?

by aroman 13y ago

coldtea 13y ago

>To use his language, I agree that the "whole thing fucked", but I also think it's fun. I enjoy the fact that things are a challenge and sometimes quirky. The problem is that the wrong things are fucked and that's neither challenging nor fun. E.g configuring some system so you can get your software built correctly is neither fun not challenging. It's merely tedious busy-work. Actually solving problems, that's the fun part.

aroman 13y ago
That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with. Not everyone sees configuring a system as "merely tedious busy-work". I for one like setting things up. It might be frustrating, but there's also an enjoyable element of accomplishment when you overcome something frustrating. It might not be the kind of fun and challenging you're looking for, but please, try not to state state opinion as fact. One man's tedium is another man's pleasure, as much as I too enjoy solving the bigger-picture problems. There's a reason both Gentoo and Arch exist :)
- coldtea 13y ago
  >That's precisely what I'm disagreeing with. Not everyone sees configuring a system as "merely tedious busy-work". I for one like setting things up. And what you're saying is precisely what I'm disagreeing with. I'm sure there are people that like those things (mostly beginner's with Unix and such, tinkerers etc). It's a form of passtime. That doesn't mean it's challenging in any creative way. It's a boring ass brain puzzle that tons of people are solving again and again. The sense of "accomplishment" of getting the dependencies to build X right, might be valid if you just started building things and getting to know how compilers, libs etc work, but it's grows old very quickly for normal people and it's a false accomplishment after that initial stage. Actually saying you enjoy that is like saying you like boilerplate code, because that's exactly what it amounts to. >It might not be the kind of fun and challenging you're looking for, but please, try not to state state opinion as fact. Sure, you can find people that like everything, even the most boring ass shit. I'm sure there are people that enjoy calculating logarithms manually too. But I wouldn't call such bizarro outlier fun as fun in the accepted sense. But it's a fact (I've seldom seen anyone state the opposite, tons of texts from Stack Overflow to blog posts support this) that most programmers/hackers tear their hair out to get rid of those "fun" tedious configuration/setup/figuring dependencies etc work and move to the real part. I've actually never read an interview with a hero programmer where he said that he likes those parts of programming -- but have read tons of those that say the exact opposite, from Alan Kay to Jamie Zawinsky. Actually a large part of programming is exactly about removing (automating) those tedious parts.
- ulisesrmzroche 13y ago
  Yeah, but what about us who are building software to make money?