8 ms·

The Men Who Want AIDS—and How It Improved Their Lives

31 points by btown 13y ago

gnarbarian 13y ago
"This cruel paradox — having to get really sick in order to enjoy a better, more comfortable life — has not gone unnoticed. " There is no cruel paradox here. I cannot begin to understand the level of lazyness, lack of self responsibility, and sense of entitlement that would lead someone to think that contracting full blown AIDS would be the 'only way' to live more comfortably. This is the line of thinking that only comes from someone that would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves.
- lmartel 13y ago
  It's pretty hard to get VC funding if you're homeless. But I agree, why do they contract AIDS for food stamps when they could just found bootstrapped SaaS lifestyle businesses? The poor are so fucking lazy.
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    I'm not implying they should go get funding. but They COULD move to a less expensive city and get a regular job. There's a big difference between a poor person and someone who thinks contracting a fatal disease is a better approach than finding a job and actually supporting themselves. But hey, if someone has resigned themselves to leech off society under any circumstance maybe having them contract a fatal disease willingly is simply natural selection at work.
    - Vivtek 13y ago
      Sure, because there are loads of jobs going unfilled right now for poor black men, right? All they have to do is just go get one.
      - mhb 13y ago
        It looks like they need waiters on Mount Desert Island: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/08/13/friends-of-acadia-national-park-charity-auction/ http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/08/13/friends-of-aca...
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        There's ALWAYS a job available if you're willing to accept a low enough wage and relocate. No matter who you are. Maybe not right where you're at now. Surely you're not implying that getting AIDS is in any way a good idea.
        mercer 13y ago
        Being able to reason about such things the way you do is, in itself, a privilege.
        gnarbarian 13y ago
        So I should check my "ability to reason" privilege. Got it.
        mercer 13y ago
        I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate?
        gnarbarian 13y ago
        http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege
        mercer 13y ago
        Maybe i should've used the term 'advantage' then. I simply wanted to point out that the ability to choose/reason is in itself very much something you 'inherit', rather than some innate skill that we all have equally.
    - elif 13y ago
      1) Leaving the city means leaving the safety net of begging for money and food. 2) Would you hire a homeless man who just moved to your small town and is starting to suffer from withdrawal, has no place to live, and has no means of reliably getting to work? for any job? There's a world of separation between the jobless and the homeless. No amount of willpower can bridge that divide, only fortune.
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        Bullshit. Almost every sizable city has programs and facilities for the homeless who actually want to improve their lives. They can get Cell phones for a dollar a month, and a place to stay while they get on their feet. The only rules are they have to TRY and kick whatever habit has already destroyed their life.
    - mercer 13y ago
      'COULD' is a complicated concept. It's something I struggle with too, when I watch movies like 'City of God', where mostly I ask myself 'why the hell don't these kids leave the city. or the country.' Or The Wire where a kid who 'got out' decides to come back. There are many factors that play a role in the options we have, and the strongest factors have nothing to do with what's objectively best. Psychologically speaking, it's a bit dangerous (and too easy) to say that poor people should just stop living their poor lifestyles and leave their poor friends and poor family for a world totally unknown to them. This is also true for addicts, or homeless people. I've come to know quite a few of both, and if anything I've started to respect the difficulty of their situation.
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        Agreed it's tough. I've never seen any of those movies but after living downtown in a city with about 400k people I've known a few addicts and homeless people. The vast majority had no intention of getting on the right track and would steal from anyone the second the opportunity presented itself. I think it's important to help the people who genuinely want to get on the right track. But I have no sympathy for someone who thinks contracting AIDS is a way to improve their lot in life.
      - RougeFemme 13y ago
        I read several years ago about a woman living in Northern Virginia who was considered a mild "success" story because she was able to get on a bus and ride about 2 miles to her job at McDonald's. She and her family had lived in the same neighborhood for a few generations within walking distance of schools, church, clinic, shopping, social services building, etc. None of them had ever left the neighborhood for anything, let alone a job. Learning that leaving the neighborhood as she did was a significant accomplishment for her - given her history/background - was a real jolt to my worldview.
        mikeash 13y ago
        Provincialism is like a massive invisible wall. The people on either side of it generally can't even fathom what it's like to be on the other side of that wall, but they don't even know it's there. I spent several years growing up in small-town Wisconsin. The idea of moving to another place is just unfathomable to a lot of people who live in a place like that. Not just hard, like, oh, that would cost a lot of money and be a lot of work, but unfathomable, the way buying a house on Mars would be. So much of our outlook is driven by our experience and we don't even realize it unless we encounter the right circumstances. If you grew up in one little area and that's all you know and that's all anybody you know has ever known, then leaving it is a big deal. Some people will pull it off, but many others simply won't be capable.
  - ignostic 13y ago
    What's with the demeaning sarcasm? No one - except you - said that building software and getting aids are the only two options. I'm sure you can see what he intended - there are many, many other options, starting with a low-skill low-wage job.
    - lmartel 13y ago
      I responded with sarcasm because I'm sick of comments like the parent. Whenever anyone brings up the possibility of creating a proper safety net in the US, or if anyone just mentions that, hey, there are some people in our country living in unbelievably shitty conditions--there's always someone ready to say "no, they deserve it, they're just lazy." It boggles my fucking mind that someone on HN, who's probably pretty well-educated, who's probably living comfortably on a cushy tech job, could say with a straight face that poor people, as an aggregate, are lazy leeches who would rather get AIDS than get work as dishwashers. A nontrivial fraction of people who read this article respond with scorn for the people involved, rather than concern about the system that puts people in these positions. That squashes any possibility of political or social change. Look at some of the other comments in this thread--"why don't they just get jobs?" Willful ignorance at its worst.
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        Great you went from infantile mockery to grossly misrepresenting my argument. I suppose that's progress. I'm not sure where to begin with this. Poor people aren't lazy. But someone who would rather contract aids than work IS a worthless lazy leech. So am I to believe that you think all educated people working in the tech industry hold far left views? That is naive beyond description.
        lmartel 13y ago
        Your argument is that >[the people in the article] would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves And that argument is stupid. I don't care if you call yourself a conservative, people will call you out if you say something stupid. My point wasn't that you should be a liberal, my point is that you're smart enough to know better. You keep saying these people would rather have AIDS than work. You're naive for thinking that they have the option to work; they would rather have AIDS than starve in a gutter.
- algorias 13y ago
  You do understand, I hope, that poverty and lack of education go hand in hand. Getting a job is not a trivial matter if you're not well educated. That will manifest itself both in less jobs being offered to you, and being less apt at looking for opportunities in not so obvious places.
  - gnarbarian 13y ago
    Finding a job sucks, but a lack of education will not prevent you from getting a job washing dishes. *I know because I used to wash dishes.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Wow, work and support themselves! What an idea! I can't believe nobody thought of that! You must go to New York immediately and tell all these people! Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure they've already had that idea, and I'm pretty sure there are reasons beyond laziness why most of these people haven't carried it out.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
    - mikeash 13y ago
      Lack of skills required by employers, lack of ability to work, lack of ability to get to work. In another comment, you mentioned that lacking education won't prevent you from getting a job washing dishes. This is true. However, I bet there are a fair number of people out there who simply can't or don't know how to wash dishes. It's almost inconceivable, but many of the skills that we take for granted, like knowing how to wash dishes, or knowing how to apply for a job, or knowing how to take a bus, are learned things that not everyone gets educated about.
      - gnarbarian 13y ago
        Bullshit. None of your examples hold any water. They teach you how to wash dishes on the job. The person in the linked article was obviously savvy enough to know how to work the system for better benefits I'm inclined to think they are lazy rather than simply ignorant. Not knowing how to ride the bus? Are you kidding me? People will even help you fill out a job app if you can't read.
        mikeash 13y ago
        Curious, why was your question worth deleting yet my reply still worth following up on?
        gnarbarian 13y ago
tomrod 13y ago
I think economists can be terrible people. Why? I'm an economist, and my first thought to this article isn't "Hey, that's horrible that people want to contract AIDS!" My first thought is "Hey, this is a natural experiment from which I can estimate discount factors!" Of course, the second thought is then "Once we know that, we can adjust the benefits ratio to discourage people from willingly contracting HIV."
- weeksie 13y ago
  While the real solution would be to provide a real social safety net to prevent that from being an incentive in the first place. The US, where you have to be dying of AIDS to get social services. America shits me to tears. As someone who has lived all over the world, the absolute cruelty of the American system never fails to baffle me. I love a lot of things about the US but the idea that the suffering that lead this man to contract the disease in the first place is just what he deserved because he was unlucky enough to be poor . . . well, words fail me.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    America shits me to tears Is this some new turn of phrase I haven't heard before?
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - weeksie 13y ago
      It's an Australianism. I lived in Sydney for a very long time :)
  - tomrod 13y ago
    I'm hesitant to ascribe perverse incentives as a function of the American social system only. I spent some time in Southeast Asia. The government-supplied social net of the US is absolutely fantastic in comparison, though culturally I found that there the social safety net is the extended family. One didn't need to be a certain socioeconomic level to get help if necessary.
boards2x 13y ago
Typical of Out/Advocate to feature blacks/browns only in negative/stereotypical stories. Never a black/brown positive story, of success, excellence, achievement or anything constructive. I've stopped reading ages ago, and they really only represent and advertise for white gay male. If you really want to see what white gay men do for "fun", watch (better not really, it's a disgusting true story of a "chaser") Todd Verow's "Bottom". Totally not the clean cut wholesome gay white male these publications like to promote, and equally disturbing.
- Aloha 13y ago
  I stopped reading the mainstream gay media a long long time ago. There was a point when I realized it represented a way of life and culture that I had no interest in, and would never welcome me either. The only thing I have in common with much of the mainstream gay community is an attraction to the same sex, my geekiness represents many more important cultural touchstones to me.
  - boards2x 13y ago
    That's really what I do too. My partner still subscribes, so I get a chance to have a look from time to time, and I find it quite upsetting, but mostly tedious/boring. PS, was going through the comments on out.com, and faire enough, one David Kelsey seems to express the same pov. I guess it's not a coincidence. (I can't comment there's because I'm not on FB, nor any of the other alternatives needed for commenting. AOL, really?)
petercooper 13y ago
This has interesting parallels to a frequent bone of contention in the UK: the role of disability benefits or pregnancies in propping up people's lifestyles. One of the oldest running tales is of the 16 year old getting pregnant in the hope of getting her own "council flat" (i.e. a place to live) rather than because she wants a baby. This just seems like the more extreme end of the same situation in a country that's not quite so forthcoming with social benefits.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
mhb 13y ago
Moral hazard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
nhashem 13y ago
Yet another handful of anecdotes about a need-based social welfare program. If you're desperate enough, sabotaging yourself to qualify for a need-based social program eventually becomes the objectively optimal thing to do. This is the first I've heard of that sabotage extended all the way to intentionally getting AIDS and intentionally not seeking treatment, though. Typically these stories can be dismissed for the anecdotes they are. I have a handful of right-winger friends who love sending me some article from the Wichita Star or something where some woman got promoted at her job, lost her Medicaid benefits, so she quit her job, and now gets even more benefits, or something, and RAAAR $16 TRILLION IN DEBT WE'RE ON THE ROAD TO GREECE MAKERS TAKERS SMALL BUSINESS THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL. No, this country has decided it's beyond the state's responsibility to provide food, shelter, and medicine to everyone. Instead, various state and local programs only provide it those things to a fraction of the people who need it, usually based on some seemingly well-intentioned criteria. And then some people have the kind of lives where being a homeless prostitute without AIDS is worse than having a roof and having AIDS, so they decide to do that. You can accept that any program like this will induce morally hazardous behavior in some people, and look for objective information vs. sensationalized anecdotes to see if that program needs reform. You can also realize any need-based program will almost always introduce said morally hazardous behavior, and the problem is that we underfund these programs so that they need this need-based criteria to begin with. Or you can push to eliminate all these programs because you think they turn everyone into lazy welfare AIDS-seeking moochers, and the good news for you is there's already a political party in the US that pretty much supports all that.
- maratd 13y ago
  > Or you can push to eliminate all these programs because you think they turn everyone into lazy welfare AIDS-seeking moochers So let me get this straight ... for thousands of years, support for the needy was provided by local religious institutions and local efforts. People gave alms, etc to their local church and then the church rendered assistance. Essentially, the community helping itself. Neighbors helping neighbors, albeit indirectly to preserve dignity. Here come the neo-liberals. Anything even remotely related to religion needs to be eradicated, so we can't keep doing things the way we used to. Now we tax the shit out of anything that moves and dispense assistance on a federal level, from Washington DC, thousands of miles away, by some faceless bureaucrats. How deranged do you have to be to think that's an improvement? Guess what? The poor and needy were provided assistance long before the welfare programs came to the fore in the 20s and 30s. They were provided assistance through private channels, through their community. Unfortunately, due to taxation to provide for similar programs on a federal level, quite a few of those channels have dried up. Unfortunate indeed.
hedonist 13y ago
“I was going to buy an outfit, but it was so hot.” TL;DR Talk about First World Problems.

31 points by btown 13y ago

"This cruel paradox — having to get really sick in order to enjoy a better, more comfortable life — has not gone unnoticed. " There is no cruel paradox here. I cannot begin to understand the level of lazyness, lack of self responsibility, and sense of entitlement that would lead someone to think that contracting full blown AIDS would be the 'only way' to live more comfortably. This is the line of thinking that only comes from someone that would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves.

lmartel 13y ago
It's pretty hard to get VC funding if you're homeless. But I agree, why do they contract AIDS for food stamps when they could just found bootstrapped SaaS lifestyle businesses? The poor are so fucking lazy.
- gnarbarian 13y ago
  I'm not implying they should go get funding. but They COULD move to a less expensive city and get a regular job. There's a big difference between a poor person and someone who thinks contracting a fatal disease is a better approach than finding a job and actually supporting themselves. But hey, if someone has resigned themselves to leech off society under any circumstance maybe having them contract a fatal disease willingly is simply natural selection at work.
  - Vivtek 13y ago
    Sure, because there are loads of jobs going unfilled right now for poor black men, right? All they have to do is just go get one.
    - mhb 13y ago
      It looks like they need waiters on Mount Desert Island: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/08/13/friends-of-acadia-national-park-charity-auction/ http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2013/08/13/friends-of-aca...
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      There's ALWAYS a job available if you're willing to accept a low enough wage and relocate. No matter who you are. Maybe not right where you're at now. Surely you're not implying that getting AIDS is in any way a good idea.
      - mercer 13y ago
        Being able to reason about such things the way you do is, in itself, a privilege.
        gnarbarian 13y ago
        So I should check my "ability to reason" privilege. Got it.
        mercer 13y ago
        I don't understand what you're trying to say. Could you elaborate?
        gnarbarian 13y ago
        http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/check-your-privilege
        mercer 13y ago
        Maybe i should've used the term 'advantage' then. I simply wanted to point out that the ability to choose/reason is in itself very much something you 'inherit', rather than some innate skill that we all have equally.
  - elif 13y ago
    1) Leaving the city means leaving the safety net of begging for money and food. 2) Would you hire a homeless man who just moved to your small town and is starting to suffer from withdrawal, has no place to live, and has no means of reliably getting to work? for any job? There's a world of separation between the jobless and the homeless. No amount of willpower can bridge that divide, only fortune.
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      Bullshit. Almost every sizable city has programs and facilities for the homeless who actually want to improve their lives. They can get Cell phones for a dollar a month, and a place to stay while they get on their feet. The only rules are they have to TRY and kick whatever habit has already destroyed their life.
  - mercer 13y ago
    'COULD' is a complicated concept. It's something I struggle with too, when I watch movies like 'City of God', where mostly I ask myself 'why the hell don't these kids leave the city. or the country.' Or The Wire where a kid who 'got out' decides to come back. There are many factors that play a role in the options we have, and the strongest factors have nothing to do with what's objectively best. Psychologically speaking, it's a bit dangerous (and too easy) to say that poor people should just stop living their poor lifestyles and leave their poor friends and poor family for a world totally unknown to them. This is also true for addicts, or homeless people. I've come to know quite a few of both, and if anything I've started to respect the difficulty of their situation.
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      Agreed it's tough. I've never seen any of those movies but after living downtown in a city with about 400k people I've known a few addicts and homeless people. The vast majority had no intention of getting on the right track and would steal from anyone the second the opportunity presented itself. I think it's important to help the people who genuinely want to get on the right track. But I have no sympathy for someone who thinks contracting AIDS is a way to improve their lot in life.
    - RougeFemme 13y ago
      I read several years ago about a woman living in Northern Virginia who was considered a mild "success" story because she was able to get on a bus and ride about 2 miles to her job at McDonald's. She and her family had lived in the same neighborhood for a few generations within walking distance of schools, church, clinic, shopping, social services building, etc. None of them had ever left the neighborhood for anything, let alone a job. Learning that leaving the neighborhood as she did was a significant accomplishment for her - given her history/background - was a real jolt to my worldview.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        Provincialism is like a massive invisible wall. The people on either side of it generally can't even fathom what it's like to be on the other side of that wall, but they don't even know it's there. I spent several years growing up in small-town Wisconsin. The idea of moving to another place is just unfathomable to a lot of people who live in a place like that. Not just hard, like, oh, that would cost a lot of money and be a lot of work, but unfathomable, the way buying a house on Mars would be. So much of our outlook is driven by our experience and we don't even realize it unless we encounter the right circumstances. If you grew up in one little area and that's all you know and that's all anybody you know has ever known, then leaving it is a big deal. Some people will pull it off, but many others simply won't be capable.
- ignostic 13y ago
  What's with the demeaning sarcasm? No one - except you - said that building software and getting aids are the only two options. I'm sure you can see what he intended - there are many, many other options, starting with a low-skill low-wage job.
  - lmartel 13y ago
    I responded with sarcasm because I'm sick of comments like the parent. Whenever anyone brings up the possibility of creating a proper safety net in the US, or if anyone just mentions that, hey, there are some people in our country living in unbelievably shitty conditions--there's always someone ready to say "no, they deserve it, they're just lazy." It boggles my fucking mind that someone on HN, who's probably pretty well-educated, who's probably living comfortably on a cushy tech job, could say with a straight face that poor people, as an aggregate, are lazy leeches who would rather get AIDS than get work as dishwashers. A nontrivial fraction of people who read this article respond with scorn for the people involved, rather than concern about the system that puts people in these positions. That squashes any possibility of political or social change. Look at some of the other comments in this thread--"why don't they just get jobs?" Willful ignorance at its worst.
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      Great you went from infantile mockery to grossly misrepresenting my argument. I suppose that's progress. I'm not sure where to begin with this. Poor people aren't lazy. But someone who would rather contract aids than work IS a worthless lazy leech. So am I to believe that you think all educated people working in the tech industry hold far left views? That is naive beyond description.
      - lmartel 13y ago
        Your argument is that >[the people in the article] would quite literally rather die a slow painful death than work and support themselves And that argument is stupid. I don't care if you call yourself a conservative, people will call you out if you say something stupid. My point wasn't that you should be a liberal, my point is that you're smart enough to know better. You keep saying these people would rather have AIDS than work. You're naive for thinking that they have the option to work; they would rather have AIDS than starve in a gutter.
algorias 13y ago
You do understand, I hope, that poverty and lack of education go hand in hand. Getting a job is not a trivial matter if you're not well educated. That will manifest itself both in less jobs being offered to you, and being less apt at looking for opportunities in not so obvious places.
- gnarbarian 13y ago
  Finding a job sucks, but a lack of education will not prevent you from getting a job washing dishes. *I know because I used to wash dishes.
mikeash 13y ago
Wow, work and support themselves! What an idea! I can't believe nobody thought of that! You must go to New York immediately and tell all these people! Seriously, though, I'm pretty sure they've already had that idea, and I'm pretty sure there are reasons beyond laziness why most of these people haven't carried it out.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Lack of skills required by employers, lack of ability to work, lack of ability to get to work. In another comment, you mentioned that lacking education won't prevent you from getting a job washing dishes. This is true. However, I bet there are a fair number of people out there who simply can't or don't know how to wash dishes. It's almost inconceivable, but many of the skills that we take for granted, like knowing how to wash dishes, or knowing how to apply for a job, or knowing how to take a bus, are learned things that not everyone gets educated about.
    - gnarbarian 13y ago
      Bullshit. None of your examples hold any water. They teach you how to wash dishes on the job. The person in the linked article was obviously savvy enough to know how to work the system for better benefits I'm inclined to think they are lazy rather than simply ignorant. Not knowing how to ride the bus? Are you kidding me? People will even help you fill out a job app if you can't read.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        Curious, why was your question worth deleting yet my reply still worth following up on?
        gnarbarian 13y ago

tomrod 13y ago

I think economists can be terrible people. Why? I'm an economist, and my first thought to this article isn't "Hey, that's horrible that people want to contract AIDS!" My first thought is "Hey, this is a natural experiment from which I can estimate discount factors!" Of course, the second thought is then "Once we know that, we can adjust the benefits ratio to discourage people from willingly contracting HIV."

weeksie 13y ago
While the real solution would be to provide a real social safety net to prevent that from being an incentive in the first place. The US, where you have to be dying of AIDS to get social services. America shits me to tears. As someone who has lived all over the world, the absolute cruelty of the American system never fails to baffle me. I love a lot of things about the US but the idea that the suffering that lead this man to contract the disease in the first place is just what he deserved because he was unlucky enough to be poor . . . well, words fail me.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  America shits me to tears Is this some new turn of phrase I haven't heard before?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - weeksie 13y ago
    It's an Australianism. I lived in Sydney for a very long time :)
- tomrod 13y ago
  I'm hesitant to ascribe perverse incentives as a function of the American social system only. I spent some time in Southeast Asia. The government-supplied social net of the US is absolutely fantastic in comparison, though culturally I found that there the social safety net is the extended family. One didn't need to be a certain socioeconomic level to get help if necessary.

boards2x 13y ago

Typical of Out/Advocate to feature blacks/browns only in negative/stereotypical stories. Never a black/brown positive story, of success, excellence, achievement or anything constructive. I've stopped reading ages ago, and they really only represent and advertise for white gay male. If you really want to see what white gay men do for "fun", watch (better not really, it's a disgusting true story of a "chaser") Todd Verow's "Bottom". Totally not the clean cut wholesome gay white male these publications like to promote, and equally disturbing.

Aloha 13y ago
I stopped reading the mainstream gay media a long long time ago. There was a point when I realized it represented a way of life and culture that I had no interest in, and would never welcome me either. The only thing I have in common with much of the mainstream gay community is an attraction to the same sex, my geekiness represents many more important cultural touchstones to me.
- boards2x 13y ago
  That's really what I do too. My partner still subscribes, so I get a chance to have a look from time to time, and I find it quite upsetting, but mostly tedious/boring. PS, was going through the comments on out.com, and faire enough, one David Kelsey seems to express the same pov. I guess it's not a coincidence. (I can't comment there's because I'm not on FB, nor any of the other alternatives needed for commenting. AOL, really?)

petercooper 13y ago

This has interesting parallels to a frequent bone of contention in the UK: the role of disability benefits or pregnancies in propping up people's lifestyles. One of the oldest running tales is of the 16 year old getting pregnant in the hope of getting her own "council flat" (i.e. a place to live) rather than because she wants a baby. This just seems like the more extreme end of the same situation in a country that's not quite so forthcoming with social benefits.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

mhb 13y ago

Moral hazard: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

nhashem 13y ago

Yet another handful of anecdotes about a need-based social welfare program. If you're desperate enough, sabotaging yourself to qualify for a need-based social program eventually becomes the objectively optimal thing to do. This is the first I've heard of that sabotage extended all the way to intentionally getting AIDS and intentionally not seeking treatment, though. Typically these stories can be dismissed for the anecdotes they are. I have a handful of right-winger friends who love sending me some article from the Wichita Star or something where some woman got promoted at her job, lost her Medicaid benefits, so she quit her job, and now gets even more benefits, or something, and RAAAR $16 TRILLION IN DEBT WE'RE ON THE ROAD TO GREECE MAKERS TAKERS SMALL BUSINESS THIS COUNTRY IS GOING TO HELL. No, this country has decided it's beyond the state's responsibility to provide food, shelter, and medicine to everyone. Instead, various state and local programs only provide it those things to a fraction of the people who need it, usually based on some seemingly well-intentioned criteria. And then some people have the kind of lives where being a homeless prostitute without AIDS is worse than having a roof and having AIDS, so they decide to do that. You can accept that any program like this will induce morally hazardous behavior in some people, and look for objective information vs. sensationalized anecdotes to see if that program needs reform. You can also realize any need-based program will almost always introduce said morally hazardous behavior, and the problem is that we underfund these programs so that they need this need-based criteria to begin with. Or you can push to eliminate all these programs because you think they turn everyone into lazy welfare AIDS-seeking moochers, and the good news for you is there's already a political party in the US that pretty much supports all that.

maratd 13y ago
> Or you can push to eliminate all these programs because you think they turn everyone into lazy welfare AIDS-seeking moochers So let me get this straight ... for thousands of years, support for the needy was provided by local religious institutions and local efforts. People gave alms, etc to their local church and then the church rendered assistance. Essentially, the community helping itself. Neighbors helping neighbors, albeit indirectly to preserve dignity. Here come the neo-liberals. Anything even remotely related to religion needs to be eradicated, so we can't keep doing things the way we used to. Now we tax the shit out of anything that moves and dispense assistance on a federal level, from Washington DC, thousands of miles away, by some faceless bureaucrats. How deranged do you have to be to think that's an improvement? Guess what? The poor and needy were provided assistance long before the welfare programs came to the fore in the 20s and 30s. They were provided assistance through private channels, through their community. Unfortunately, due to taxation to provide for similar programs on a federal level, quite a few of those channels have dried up. Unfortunate indeed.

hedonist 13y ago

“I was going to buy an outfit, but it was so hot.” TL;DR Talk about First World Problems.