6 ms·

No Way NSA

173 points by twog 13y ago

grandpoobah 13y ago
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. ^ Missing the end quote
bendoernberg 13y ago
This is awesome! Any chance you can repost tomorrow when it might get a bit more attention?
- sillysaurus 13y ago
  Just a FYI for the submitter: that's a bannable offense, and enforced. Wouldn't want you to lose your account.
  - thejosh 13y ago
    reposting content is bannable? Every week I see posts reposted daily - for example Bootstrap was posted multiple times over a time period.
    - ZoF 13y ago
      Re-posting your own post, not happening to post the same link as someone else.
Everlag 13y ago
Really nice site that could get out into social media and spread quite easily! I mean, that combination of animations and potent yet minimalistic text really gets the point through in a small package.
- ChrisAntaki 13y ago
  It's great more & more people are waking up.
- icantthinkofone 13y ago
  And it gives the little people something to do.
fusiongyro 13y ago
"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon."
theboss 13y ago
Lots of inaccuracies and fallacies. The NSA Spying is not against the fourth amendment. If you're a lawyer feel free to correct me but the supreme court has made it very clear that they believe the framers were being literal when they said "persons, houses, papers, and effects." and they have said they believe this cannot be extended to non-tangible things like data. And whether I'm right or wrong it's better to say 'We Believe' it is a violation... because if it was then the NSA would have been forced to stop The big problem is that the NSA can do this without breaking the law...
- rgbrenner 13y ago
  I've never heard the argument you're making -- that it doesn't apple because it's data. The NSA/gov has said repeatedly what their argument is.. it's because you've entrusted a third-party with it, and therefore there was no expectation of privacy.
  - theboss 13y ago
    Yes this is a reason too. Katz v US. People need to think "Who really owns my facebook account, my twitter account, my dropbox, etc..." If it isnt you (it isnt... trust me) then you're out of luck
    - magicalist 13y ago
      That is not correct. It is still your data (that's why you need to grant a license to these companies to show your pictures even just back to you), and the third party doctrine is not settled law. It has backing in precedent, but as ghayes cites above, the supreme court has given some strong signals that they would not agree with it today (e.g. in US v Jones). In addition, the incredibly important US v Warshak had the sixth circuit ruling that email in long term storage on a third party's server had just as much expectation of privacy for the owner as any personally held document. There are several companies now using that as a legal basis for requiring a warrant (which requires demonstrating probable cause) for account content requests (apparently outside of those coming from the FBI/NSA, unfortunately...), so it's likely this will come up before too long, either in Congress (I'd love to see the ECPA reformed but don't have high hopes) or in the Supreme Court, especially if another court of appeals rules differently. I also have no idea why you cite Katz v US, as that's where the "reasonable expectation of privacy" test itself comes from, which runs directly counter to the later legal theory of the third party doctrine (in e.g. Smith v Maryland), which takes little account for reasonable expectations so long as you're handing off your communications to a third party.
sneak 13y ago
The really terrible part of all of this is that the administration's response has been to put James Clapper, the guy who lied under oath to congress about the scope of these very programs, in charge of reviewing the policies that created them. He should be facing charges, and instead he's promoted to an oversight role. http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-review-group-brought-to-you-by-the-booz-allen-hamilton-director-of-national-intelligence/ http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-review-g...
- SmokyBorbon 13y ago
  Damn straight. Clapper to the slammer.
- krichman 13y ago
  "Obama announces the formation of a 'least dependent' group to review our capabilities."
sneak 13y ago
"NSA surveillance has damaged foreign relations. Millions are protesting worldwide and European businesses are abandoning U.S. tech companies. Total losses could reach $35 billion." I'm not sure where WaPo got that $35bn number, but it seems quite low to me.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
skrebbel 13y ago
I like that the site's design is entirely based on the flag of the Netherlands, famously the country with the highest amount of phone taps per inhabitant.
jordanthoms 13y ago
Nice - one point, it wasn't at all obvious from the initial screen that you can scroll down. There should be a visual hint.
- merlish 13y ago
  I also missed this just now. Thought it was a one-slide site. Big down arrow please!
  - hobs 13y ago
    There is a bouncing down arrow at the bottom middle of the screen, unless it has changed since you posted this comment. Update: I read lower, and Mike totally DID add it after these comments.
- rcruzeiro 13y ago
  Thanks, I had missed it!
- asgard1024 13y ago
  Thanks. :-)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Zoomla 13y ago
  there's the scroll bar...
EGreg 13y ago
Spying? In MY country? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y
bazillion 13y ago
"There is no evidence that the FISA Court and NSA programs are effective. Mass surveillance did not prevent tragedy in Boston or aid in identifying those responsible." I think this part very much weakens your argument and should be removed entirely. First, the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance -- that falls upon the FBI. Secondly, you can collect all of the data that you want, but you won't be able to prevent the lone wolf element (as opposed to organized terrorism), especially with no national database of firearms.
- t0 13y ago
  Also, it could in fact be very effective. That information is never released to the public.
- Peaker 13y ago
  It may fall upon the FBI, but weren't the leaks all about the fact that the NSA does in fact implement domestic surveillance? Also, if the NSA surveillance stopped many terrorists - they could expose it. Whether this trade-off of privacy vs. security is worth it cannot be left in the hands of a few elite decision makers, even if supposedly exposing the public to these details may make the program lose some of its effectiveness.
- D9u 13y ago
  >the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance Have you not been reading the news? https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/nsa-latest-the-secret-history-of-domestic-surveillance.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/ns... http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-spying-on-foreign http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-spyi... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-idUKBRE9761B620130807 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-idUKBRE9... Thanks to the "Patriot Act" and "Threat Fusion Centers," along with other such efforts to streamline the police state agenda in the name of the "War on Terror," government agencies have been sharing information more readily than in the past, apparently to the point of NSA derived intelligence being used in pursuit of drug dealers and tax cheats on US soil. Of course people are aware of the intended functions of the various federal enforcement agencies, and the fact that these agencies are overstepping their mandate is why people make websites such as the one featured here. The quotes you refer to are quite relevant, in my view.
iamnotserious 13y ago
Strange. I immediately looked past the goal of the site and fell in love with how it looks instead. Fantastic work there.
pbz 13y ago
This is good, but I think a more effective way is to bring up some hypotheticals. You don't even have to make up your own. Just look at history and you will find lots of examples of how secrecy leads to corruption, in-fighting, negative psychological effects, loss of free expressions, fear, oppression, etc. One neat way to approach this would be to talk about an example that happened in the past and draw parallels with what it going on today. It's difficult for people to understand or see where all this leads, which is why there's so little revolt. Unfortunately, by the time people feel the effects it's too late.
001sky 13y ago
According to a recent NSA memo, 1.6% of all online activity is monitored and collected. That’s enough to capture more than 50% of all internet communications. == Leverage
mciarlo 13y ago
Thanks for all the kind words :) Fixed up the quote and the first slide. I'm doing everything I can to try and get this in front of people. I'm extremely grateful that a discussion happened on HN and am looking forward to seeing where the site goes from here. Cheers, Mike

No Way NSA

173 points by twog 13y ago

grandpoobah 13y ago

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. ^ Missing the end quote

bendoernberg 13y ago

This is awesome! Any chance you can repost tomorrow when it might get a bit more attention?

sillysaurus 13y ago
Just a FYI for the submitter: that's a bannable offense, and enforced. Wouldn't want you to lose your account.
- thejosh 13y ago
  reposting content is bannable? Every week I see posts reposted daily - for example Bootstrap was posted multiple times over a time period.
  - ZoF 13y ago
    Re-posting your own post, not happening to post the same link as someone else.

Everlag 13y ago

Really nice site that could get out into social media and spread quite easily! I mean, that combination of animations and potent yet minimalistic text really gets the point through in a small package.

ChrisAntaki 13y ago
It's great more & more people are waking up.
icantthinkofone 13y ago
And it gives the little people something to do.

fusiongyro 13y ago

"Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon."

theboss 13y ago

Lots of inaccuracies and fallacies. The NSA Spying is not against the fourth amendment. If you're a lawyer feel free to correct me but the supreme court has made it very clear that they believe the framers were being literal when they said "persons, houses, papers, and effects." and they have said they believe this cannot be extended to non-tangible things like data. And whether I'm right or wrong it's better to say 'We Believe' it is a violation... because if it was then the NSA would have been forced to stop The big problem is that the NSA can do this without breaking the law...

rgbrenner 13y ago
I've never heard the argument you're making -- that it doesn't apple because it's data. The NSA/gov has said repeatedly what their argument is.. it's because you've entrusted a third-party with it, and therefore there was no expectation of privacy.
- theboss 13y ago
  Yes this is a reason too. Katz v US. People need to think "Who really owns my facebook account, my twitter account, my dropbox, etc..." If it isnt you (it isnt... trust me) then you're out of luck
  - magicalist 13y ago
    That is not correct. It is still your data (that's why you need to grant a license to these companies to show your pictures even just back to you), and the third party doctrine is not settled law. It has backing in precedent, but as ghayes cites above, the supreme court has given some strong signals that they would not agree with it today (e.g. in US v Jones). In addition, the incredibly important US v Warshak had the sixth circuit ruling that email in long term storage on a third party's server had just as much expectation of privacy for the owner as any personally held document. There are several companies now using that as a legal basis for requiring a warrant (which requires demonstrating probable cause) for account content requests (apparently outside of those coming from the FBI/NSA, unfortunately...), so it's likely this will come up before too long, either in Congress (I'd love to see the ECPA reformed but don't have high hopes) or in the Supreme Court, especially if another court of appeals rules differently. I also have no idea why you cite Katz v US, as that's where the "reasonable expectation of privacy" test itself comes from, which runs directly counter to the later legal theory of the third party doctrine (in e.g. Smith v Maryland), which takes little account for reasonable expectations so long as you're handing off your communications to a third party.

sneak 13y ago

The really terrible part of all of this is that the administration's response has been to put James Clapper, the guy who lied under oath to congress about the scope of these very programs, in charge of reviewing the policies that created them. He should be facing charges, and instead he's promoted to an oversight role. http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-review-group-brought-to-you-by-the-booz-allen-hamilton-director-of-national-intelligence/ http://www.emptywheel.net/2013/08/12/this-technical-review-g...

SmokyBorbon 13y ago
Damn straight. Clapper to the slammer.
krichman 13y ago
"Obama announces the formation of a 'least dependent' group to review our capabilities."

sneak 13y ago

"NSA surveillance has damaged foreign relations. Millions are protesting worldwide and European businesses are abandoning U.S. tech companies. Total losses could reach $35 billion." I'm not sure where WaPo got that $35bn number, but it seems quite low to me.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

skrebbel 13y ago

I like that the site's design is entirely based on the flag of the Netherlands, famously the country with the highest amount of phone taps per inhabitant.

jordanthoms 13y ago

Nice - one point, it wasn't at all obvious from the initial screen that you can scroll down. There should be a visual hint.

merlish 13y ago
I also missed this just now. Thought it was a one-slide site. Big down arrow please!
- hobs 13y ago
  There is a bouncing down arrow at the bottom middle of the screen, unless it has changed since you posted this comment. Update: I read lower, and Mike totally DID add it after these comments.
rcruzeiro 13y ago
Thanks, I had missed it!
asgard1024 13y ago
Thanks. :-)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Zoomla 13y ago
there's the scroll bar...

EGreg 13y ago

Spying? In MY country? http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/x-in-my-y

bazillion 13y ago

"There is no evidence that the FISA Court and NSA programs are effective. Mass surveillance did not prevent tragedy in Boston or aid in identifying those responsible." I think this part very much weakens your argument and should be removed entirely. First, the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance -- that falls upon the FBI. Secondly, you can collect all of the data that you want, but you won't be able to prevent the lone wolf element (as opposed to organized terrorism), especially with no national database of firearms.

t0 13y ago
Also, it could in fact be very effective. That information is never released to the public.
Peaker 13y ago
It may fall upon the FBI, but weren't the leaks all about the fact that the NSA does in fact implement domestic surveillance? Also, if the NSA surveillance stopped many terrorists - they could expose it. Whether this trade-off of privacy vs. security is worth it cannot be left in the hands of a few elite decision makers, even if supposedly exposing the public to these details may make the program lose some of its effectiveness.
D9u 13y ago
>the NSA has nothing to do with domestic surveillance Have you not been reading the news? https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/nsa-latest-the-secret-history-of-domestic-surveillance.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/06/ns... http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-spying-on-foreign http://reason.com/blog/2013/08/05/shocker-nsa-tools-for-spyi... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-idUKBRE9761B620130807 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/07/uk-dea-irs-idUKBRE9... Thanks to the "Patriot Act" and "Threat Fusion Centers," along with other such efforts to streamline the police state agenda in the name of the "War on Terror," government agencies have been sharing information more readily than in the past, apparently to the point of NSA derived intelligence being used in pursuit of drug dealers and tax cheats on US soil. Of course people are aware of the intended functions of the various federal enforcement agencies, and the fact that these agencies are overstepping their mandate is why people make websites such as the one featured here. The quotes you refer to are quite relevant, in my view.

iamnotserious 13y ago

Strange. I immediately looked past the goal of the site and fell in love with how it looks instead. Fantastic work there.

pbz 13y ago

This is good, but I think a more effective way is to bring up some hypotheticals. You don't even have to make up your own. Just look at history and you will find lots of examples of how secrecy leads to corruption, in-fighting, negative psychological effects, loss of free expressions, fear, oppression, etc. One neat way to approach this would be to talk about an example that happened in the past and draw parallels with what it going on today. It's difficult for people to understand or see where all this leads, which is why there's so little revolt. Unfortunately, by the time people feel the effects it's too late.

001sky 13y ago

According to a recent NSA memo, 1.6% of all online activity is monitored and collected. That’s enough to capture more than 50% of all internet communications. == Leverage

mciarlo 13y ago

Thanks for all the kind words :) Fixed up the quote and the first slide. I'm doing everything I can to try and get this in front of people. I'm extremely grateful that a discussion happened on HN and am looking forward to seeing where the site goes from here. Cheers, Mike