5 ms·

If you honestly think women are the privileged class, I urge you to befriend some transgendered women and try to learn about their experiences in transitioning.

If you honestly think women are the privileged class, I urge you to befriend some transgendered women and try to learn about their experiences in transitioning. Some of my best friend's are trans and it's pretty hard to ignore the privileges I enjoy as a man when I've seen those privileges disappear the second someone becomes female presenting. And you still really have no idea what feminism is about, I can't think of any feminist ideologies that advance the "women are victims" line of reasoning. Most feminist ideologies seem, to me at least, primarily concerned with empowering women, and painting them as victim's is sort of the opposite of that.

Tichy 13y ago
If you can't see the "women are victims" aspect, you must be blind. Sorry - just look at the Cecilia Payne pamphlet that started this discussion. No victim painted there? And that is a very mild example. "Rape culture" does not paint women as victims? As for privileges of women, granted, both genders face different issues in society. Most privileges of women center around having children - that is also the only place where you will find inequality in laws, and they are favoring women (there are in fact no laws that favor men in most western societies). If you don't want to have children or can't have children, as is presumably the case for transgender types, of course you face more issues. If you don't want children, it sucks a bit - life indeed isn't fair in that regard. However I don't think society can be blamed for the fact that nature produced two sexes (or a bit more) and that people can not choose their sex by themselves. I suppose if you can make a credible case that you will never have children, most of those issues can go away (like employers being wary of hiring you because of the risk of motherhood). Give some examples of disappearing privileges your transgender friends experience, though?
- quinnchr 13y ago
  The privilege of not being catcalled every time they walk down the street (this is very real and very disturbing). The privilege of not being approached by every man who wants to sleep with you. The privilege of men not feeling entitled to your attention whenever they want it. The privilege of not being constantly objectified. The privilege of being able to go to a bar just to hang out with friends and not be approached by every dude in the bar. The privilege of being payed more (I recommended my friend for the exact same position I was in and she ended up being offered 20% less than I was before negotiation). I could go on forever.. You can't choose your sex, but you can absolutely choose your gender.. Please learn about the difference between the two. There are no laws that favor men in western society? What if I told you that divorce law favors men? What if I told you that when men actively seek custody they are awarded full or joint custody 70% of the time. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias... And I'm pretty sure feminism is anti-rape culture. Most women are taught that in a rape situation it's better to not fight back, some schools of feminist thought teach the opposite. They teach women to fight back and to not accept the role of victim.
  - Tichy 13y ago
    "you can absolutely choose your gender" I've been reading the intro of the book you recommended. Frankly, that gender discussion seems extremely weird and trite. Why don't you just behave the way you like to, rather than get lost in philosophical mazes about gender? As you say, if you can choose your gender, why don't you just do so and be done with it? So what exactly makes your friends be the victim of being approached? Are they men who want to become women? What attracts the men, boobs, or their clothing? I fully understand that it can be annoying to be approached all the time. However, it is the flip side of being attractive, which brings lots of advantages. Curiously, few industries cater to making people less attractive, a lot cater to making them more attractive. So perhaps your friends who want to be left alone are not very typical. Yes, it is unfair that women are more attractive than men (as I elaborated in another comment, they have a much higher biological value than men, hence they are being sought out). But it has upsides and downsides (as has being a man). I am pretty sure you can also exert at least some control over the amount of street hassling you get by the way you present yourself. I can assure you that not every man who wants to sleep with a woman approaches that woman. And not every dude approaches every woman in a bar. Objectification is just a nonsense concept, sorry. That's pure ideology. What is it even supposed to mean? Attraction isn't real unless you recite poems together? We had the pay discussion already, don't know enough about your friend to comment. As for your divorce laws, that document is rather long, I couldn't read it all yet. If what you say is true I suspect you have found an outlier state. Also perhaps men who seek custody are the ones whose lawyers already said they have a chance because of the way their case is structured, it doesn't say anything about the real proportion of men who get custody. As for rape, I have no idea if it is better to fight back or not - I'd recommend asking experts about that. I know that we don't live in a rape culture, though - as I've also explained in another comment already.
    - quinnchr 13y ago
      She's a victim of being approached all the time, because she presents as a woman not because she's attractive. Subjectively speaking I'm a much more attractive man than she is a woman, yet I get approached by women very rarely, and she gets approached by men constantly. And not in a good way, men will come up to her tell her disgusting stuff about what they want to do to her and not leave her alone when she's obviously not interested. If you honestly think you can just chose your gender and be done with it, I again urge you to meet some transgendered people and talk to them about their experiences in transitioning. My friend wanted to change her name after she transitioned, and it took 3 tries with the court system. The first judge recused himself because he never granted name changes for transgendered people, the second judge made my friend cry on the stand by accusing her of just wanting to use women's restrooms so she could harass "real" women, and the third one finally granted a name change after months of trying. But, if you want to change your name to "Tyrannosaurus Rex" no problem: http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1-aff3-0019bb2963f4.html http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1... As for the divorce issue. The most recent nationwide data I could find says it's a 50/50 split when men seek custody: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-getting-custody-in-divorce/?_r=0 http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-g... Furthermore, the reason men are awarded custody less, is not because of bias in the court it's because men choose to seek custody less. Look at the statistics here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myt... Married men spend half as much time with their children as married women. Our culture dictates that women are the ones responsible for parenting, thus they are expected to take time out of their career for children, in divorce proceeding it's expected that they are the primary caregiver. Women being subjugated to the role of homemaker is a result of patriarchy and absolutely harms men too. I would love to live in a world where men spend just as much time with their children, where it's ok to be a stay at home dad, where it's expected that men will take a break from their career to care for their children. The fact is we don't live in that world, we live in a world where being a homemaker is intricately tied to the gender role of women. Feminists want to change that, and I suspect you have more in common with feminists than you would like to think. Feminists are all about extending, as you say the "privileges" they enjoy, to everyone. And by the way, your comment is a perfect example of rape culture. You suggest that she should alter the way she presents herself so she doesn't get harassed. By saying that you are acknowledging the idea that men are rapists and women are victims. Why is it expected that she should change her appearance if she doesn't want to be harassed? Why is it accepted that men will harass women if they find them attractive? Why is it accepted that if a woman goes to a party and gets too drunk, that there's a good chance she'll be raped? I've been too drunk at many parties and not once have I had to even think about being raped. Feminists would argue that all men are not rapists, another point I suspect you would agree with feminists on. I run around my neighborhood all the time in nothing but shoes and shorts, yet I've never been harassed or approached once. I guarantee you that is simply not possible for a woman to do. Of course you are allowed to be attracted to someone based on how they look. That's not objectification. As a man, in my personal experience about 90% of the compliments I receive are related to my accomplishments or general intelligence, the other 10% are about my appearance. That 10% generally come from people I'm already intimate with, I can't honestly think of more than about 5 instances in my life when my appearance was complemented by a stranger. Do you really think that's true for women? I urge you to talk to the women you know and try to learn about their experiences. Anyway, I'm glad you've at least tried to read the information I've given you, and you seem to be at least a little bit open minded, which I appreciate. I don't want to keep belaboring points, but you seem willing to challenge your worldview, so if there are any other feminist stereotypes you'd like me to dispel or you are interested in learning more about feminism you are more than welcome to contact me at the email in my profile and I'd be happy to point you towards some good resources.

Tichy 13y ago

If you can't see the "women are victims" aspect, you must be blind. Sorry - just look at the Cecilia Payne pamphlet that started this discussion. No victim painted there? And that is a very mild example. "Rape culture" does not paint women as victims? As for privileges of women, granted, both genders face different issues in society. Most privileges of women center around having children - that is also the only place where you will find inequality in laws, and they are favoring women (there are in fact no laws that favor men in most western societies). If you don't want to have children or can't have children, as is presumably the case for transgender types, of course you face more issues. If you don't want children, it sucks a bit - life indeed isn't fair in that regard. However I don't think society can be blamed for the fact that nature produced two sexes (or a bit more) and that people can not choose their sex by themselves. I suppose if you can make a credible case that you will never have children, most of those issues can go away (like employers being wary of hiring you because of the risk of motherhood). Give some examples of disappearing privileges your transgender friends experience, though?

quinnchr 13y ago
The privilege of not being catcalled every time they walk down the street (this is very real and very disturbing). The privilege of not being approached by every man who wants to sleep with you. The privilege of men not feeling entitled to your attention whenever they want it. The privilege of not being constantly objectified. The privilege of being able to go to a bar just to hang out with friends and not be approached by every dude in the bar. The privilege of being payed more (I recommended my friend for the exact same position I was in and she ended up being offered 20% less than I was before negotiation). I could go on forever.. You can't choose your sex, but you can absolutely choose your gender.. Please learn about the difference between the two. There are no laws that favor men in western society? What if I told you that divorce law favors men? What if I told you that when men actively seek custody they are awarded full or joint custody 70% of the time. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias... And I'm pretty sure feminism is anti-rape culture. Most women are taught that in a rape situation it's better to not fight back, some schools of feminist thought teach the opposite. They teach women to fight back and to not accept the role of victim.
- Tichy 13y ago
  "you can absolutely choose your gender" I've been reading the intro of the book you recommended. Frankly, that gender discussion seems extremely weird and trite. Why don't you just behave the way you like to, rather than get lost in philosophical mazes about gender? As you say, if you can choose your gender, why don't you just do so and be done with it? So what exactly makes your friends be the victim of being approached? Are they men who want to become women? What attracts the men, boobs, or their clothing? I fully understand that it can be annoying to be approached all the time. However, it is the flip side of being attractive, which brings lots of advantages. Curiously, few industries cater to making people less attractive, a lot cater to making them more attractive. So perhaps your friends who want to be left alone are not very typical. Yes, it is unfair that women are more attractive than men (as I elaborated in another comment, they have a much higher biological value than men, hence they are being sought out). But it has upsides and downsides (as has being a man). I am pretty sure you can also exert at least some control over the amount of street hassling you get by the way you present yourself. I can assure you that not every man who wants to sleep with a woman approaches that woman. And not every dude approaches every woman in a bar. Objectification is just a nonsense concept, sorry. That's pure ideology. What is it even supposed to mean? Attraction isn't real unless you recite poems together? We had the pay discussion already, don't know enough about your friend to comment. As for your divorce laws, that document is rather long, I couldn't read it all yet. If what you say is true I suspect you have found an outlier state. Also perhaps men who seek custody are the ones whose lawyers already said they have a chance because of the way their case is structured, it doesn't say anything about the real proportion of men who get custody. As for rape, I have no idea if it is better to fight back or not - I'd recommend asking experts about that. I know that we don't live in a rape culture, though - as I've also explained in another comment already.
  - quinnchr 13y ago
    She's a victim of being approached all the time, because she presents as a woman not because she's attractive. Subjectively speaking I'm a much more attractive man than she is a woman, yet I get approached by women very rarely, and she gets approached by men constantly. And not in a good way, men will come up to her tell her disgusting stuff about what they want to do to her and not leave her alone when she's obviously not interested. If you honestly think you can just chose your gender and be done with it, I again urge you to meet some transgendered people and talk to them about their experiences in transitioning. My friend wanted to change her name after she transitioned, and it took 3 tries with the court system. The first judge recused himself because he never granted name changes for transgendered people, the second judge made my friend cry on the stand by accusing her of just wanting to use women's restrooms so she could harass "real" women, and the third one finally granted a name change after months of trying. But, if you want to change your name to "Tyrannosaurus Rex" no problem: http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1-aff3-0019bb2963f4.html http://www.yorknewstimes.com/news/article_e9991cb6-9860-11e1... As for the divorce issue. The most recent nationwide data I could find says it's a 50/50 split when men seek custody: http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-getting-custody-in-divorce/?_r=0 http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/17/more-fathers-g... Furthermore, the reason men are awarded custody less, is not because of bias in the court it's because men choose to seek custody less. Look at the statistics here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myt... Married men spend half as much time with their children as married women. Our culture dictates that women are the ones responsible for parenting, thus they are expected to take time out of their career for children, in divorce proceeding it's expected that they are the primary caregiver. Women being subjugated to the role of homemaker is a result of patriarchy and absolutely harms men too. I would love to live in a world where men spend just as much time with their children, where it's ok to be a stay at home dad, where it's expected that men will take a break from their career to care for their children. The fact is we don't live in that world, we live in a world where being a homemaker is intricately tied to the gender role of women. Feminists want to change that, and I suspect you have more in common with feminists than you would like to think. Feminists are all about extending, as you say the "privileges" they enjoy, to everyone. And by the way, your comment is a perfect example of rape culture. You suggest that she should alter the way she presents herself so she doesn't get harassed. By saying that you are acknowledging the idea that men are rapists and women are victims. Why is it expected that she should change her appearance if she doesn't want to be harassed? Why is it accepted that men will harass women if they find them attractive? Why is it accepted that if a woman goes to a party and gets too drunk, that there's a good chance she'll be raped? I've been too drunk at many parties and not once have I had to even think about being raped. Feminists would argue that all men are not rapists, another point I suspect you would agree with feminists on. I run around my neighborhood all the time in nothing but shoes and shorts, yet I've never been harassed or approached once. I guarantee you that is simply not possible for a woman to do. Of course you are allowed to be attracted to someone based on how they look. That's not objectification. As a man, in my personal experience about 90% of the compliments I receive are related to my accomplishments or general intelligence, the other 10% are about my appearance. That 10% generally come from people I'm already intimate with, I can't honestly think of more than about 5 instances in my life when my appearance was complemented by a stranger. Do you really think that's true for women? I urge you to talk to the women you know and try to learn about their experiences. Anyway, I'm glad you've at least tried to read the information I've given you, and you seem to be at least a little bit open minded, which I appreciate. I don't want to keep belaboring points, but you seem willing to challenge your worldview, so if there are any other feminist stereotypes you'd like me to dispel or you are interested in learning more about feminism you are more than welcome to contact me at the email in my profile and I'd be happy to point you towards some good resources.