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I did not say who or what creates the patriarchy - what matters to feminism is that women have to be seen as a disadvantaged group of people. As for gender and

by Tichy 13y ago

I did not say who or what creates the patriarchy - what matters to feminism is that women have to be seen as a disadvantaged group of people. As for gender and toys, obviously industries don't usually have our best interests in their hearts, they care for themselves. One theory I have heard is that by creating gender specific toys they can sell more stuff. Same goes for advertising. To complain about advertising (and gender branding of toys) seems a bit silly. The question is however, are we victims to advertising and toy industries? Feminism seems to think women are too weak to find their own identity. (And boys, too - but feminists seem to think the boys world is more desirable somehow). Should we strive for censorship in toy products? That is the real underlying question? Should there be a law against using pink in toys? Of course no feminists thinks they are striving for such laws, but it is what they are effectively asking for. Personally I think it would be a bad idea to regulate such things. Feminists tend to think they are actually fighters for tolerance, but they are not - they fight for intolerance. Because if some girl decides she wants to paint her room pink, shouldn't she be allowed to do that, too? I have no gripes against female self-help circles encouraging each others to use clothes and toys in other colors than pink, or encouraging each other to study maths instead of gender studies at university. If they think it is important to them, why not - they can do whatever they want. That is not what feminists are usually doing, though - instead they complain that they are victims of an evil (patriarchy controlled) industry that determines their gender roles against their wills. So they are the victims again, calling for daddy (in the form of the government) to rescue them instead of making their own fate. I can't bring myself to respect that. As for gender being learned or inherited - it seems unlikely to me that preferences for pink are inherited (indeed historically pink used to be the color for men, or so I have read). However, there are undeniable biological differences between men and women. As I said, those create different incentives. For example sex is much more risky for women than for men, therefore women think twice before having sex with somebody. Having children is a much bigger investment for women than for men. Those things are bound to have an effect (on average). Also while you are pregnant you can not easily go and fight a war, or plow a field. That is just the way it is. And as I said, if you are born as a man, you can not simply decide you want to live like a woman and count on becoming a stay at home dad. Why would women bear your kids AND work for you, too? On average women will want the man to work in exchange for providing the birthing service (which, as a man who has witnessed the birth of my son, I find fair enough, birth is no picnic). The other way (live like a man if you are born a woman) is much easier because men don't get special treatments in society, in fact I think there are some cultures where women can decide to live like men and forgo the advantages women enjoy - they then have to wear men's clothes for the rest of their lives (see http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-who-have-lived-their-lives-as-men/ http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-... )

quinnchr 13y ago
If you honestly think women are the privileged class, I urge you to befriend some transgendered women and try to learn about their experiences in transitioning. Some of my best friend's are trans and it's pretty hard to ignore the privileges I enjoy as a man when I've seen those privileges disappear the second someone becomes female presenting. And you still really have no idea what feminism is about, I can't think of any feminist ideologies that advance the "women are victims" line of reasoning. Most feminist ideologies seem, to me at least, primarily concerned with empowering women, and painting them as victim's is sort of the opposite of that.
- Tichy 13y ago
  If you can't see the "women are victims" aspect, you must be blind. Sorry - just look at the Cecilia Payne pamphlet that started this discussion. No victim painted there? And that is a very mild example. "Rape culture" does not paint women as victims? As for privileges of women, granted, both genders face different issues in society. Most privileges of women center around having children - that is also the only place where you will find inequality in laws, and they are favoring women (there are in fact no laws that favor men in most western societies). If you don't want to have children or can't have children, as is presumably the case for transgender types, of course you face more issues. If you don't want children, it sucks a bit - life indeed isn't fair in that regard. However I don't think society can be blamed for the fact that nature produced two sexes (or a bit more) and that people can not choose their sex by themselves. I suppose if you can make a credible case that you will never have children, most of those issues can go away (like employers being wary of hiring you because of the risk of motherhood). Give some examples of disappearing privileges your transgender friends experience, though?
  - quinnchr 13y ago
    The privilege of not being catcalled every time they walk down the street (this is very real and very disturbing). The privilege of not being approached by every man who wants to sleep with you. The privilege of men not feeling entitled to your attention whenever they want it. The privilege of not being constantly objectified. The privilege of being able to go to a bar just to hang out with friends and not be approached by every dude in the bar. The privilege of being payed more (I recommended my friend for the exact same position I was in and she ended up being offered 20% less than I was before negotiation). I could go on forever.. You can't choose your sex, but you can absolutely choose your gender.. Please learn about the difference between the two. There are no laws that favor men in western society? What if I told you that divorce law favors men? What if I told you that when men actively seek custody they are awarded full or joint custody 70% of the time. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias... And I'm pretty sure feminism is anti-rape culture. Most women are taught that in a rape situation it's better to not fight back, some schools of feminist thought teach the opposite. They teach women to fight back and to not accept the role of victim.

by Tichy 13y ago

quinnchr 13y ago

If you honestly think women are the privileged class, I urge you to befriend some transgendered women and try to learn about their experiences in transitioning. Some of my best friend's are trans and it's pretty hard to ignore the privileges I enjoy as a man when I've seen those privileges disappear the second someone becomes female presenting. And you still really have no idea what feminism is about, I can't think of any feminist ideologies that advance the "women are victims" line of reasoning. Most feminist ideologies seem, to me at least, primarily concerned with empowering women, and painting them as victim's is sort of the opposite of that.

Tichy 13y ago
If you can't see the "women are victims" aspect, you must be blind. Sorry - just look at the Cecilia Payne pamphlet that started this discussion. No victim painted there? And that is a very mild example. "Rape culture" does not paint women as victims? As for privileges of women, granted, both genders face different issues in society. Most privileges of women center around having children - that is also the only place where you will find inequality in laws, and they are favoring women (there are in fact no laws that favor men in most western societies). If you don't want to have children or can't have children, as is presumably the case for transgender types, of course you face more issues. If you don't want children, it sucks a bit - life indeed isn't fair in that regard. However I don't think society can be blamed for the fact that nature produced two sexes (or a bit more) and that people can not choose their sex by themselves. I suppose if you can make a credible case that you will never have children, most of those issues can go away (like employers being wary of hiring you because of the risk of motherhood). Give some examples of disappearing privileges your transgender friends experience, though?
- quinnchr 13y ago
  The privilege of not being catcalled every time they walk down the street (this is very real and very disturbing). The privilege of not being approached by every man who wants to sleep with you. The privilege of men not feeling entitled to your attention whenever they want it. The privilege of not being constantly objectified. The privilege of being able to go to a bar just to hang out with friends and not be approached by every dude in the bar. The privilege of being payed more (I recommended my friend for the exact same position I was in and she ended up being offered 20% less than I was before negotiation). I could go on forever.. You can't choose your sex, but you can absolutely choose your gender.. Please learn about the difference between the two. There are no laws that favor men in western society? What if I told you that divorce law favors men? What if I told you that when men actively seek custody they are awarded full or joint custody 70% of the time. http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias_Study.htm http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/Massachusetts_Gender_Bias... And I'm pretty sure feminism is anti-rape culture. Most women are taught that in a rape situation it's better to not fight back, some schools of feminist thought teach the opposite. They teach women to fight back and to not accept the role of victim.