5 ms·

You seem incredibly misinformed. I'm not sure how anyone can be familiar with feminist thought and come to those conclusion. Please don't think that feminist th

You seem incredibly misinformed. I'm not sure how anyone can be familiar with feminist thought and come to those conclusion. Please don't think that feminist thought places the blame for patriarchy on men, internalized oppression is constantly brought up in feminist literature and the blame falls on men and women alike. And I'm not saying that you can't criticize feminism, of course you're allowed to. But please be cognizant of the fact there are many different, often times opposing, feminist ideologies. You're criticism of one school of thought does not apply to all feminists, please try to be aware of when you are stereotyping. You seem pretty angry, and I doubt there's much I can say to make you reconsider your positions. But, I'd like you to do an experiment, go to your nearest Toys R Us and compare the girl's toys and the boy's toys. After making your observations give some deep thought to whether or not gender is a social construct, and whether gender differences are learned or inherited.

foobarbazqux 13y ago
> After making your observations give some deep thought to whether or not gender is a social construct, and whether gender differences are learned or inherited. Why is this always framed as either/or? Why can't gender differences derive from both society and biology?
- quinnchr 13y ago
  They certainly can be a mix, and that's what I personally believe. I didn't mean to present them as mutually exclusive ideas.
mpfollett 13y ago
>And I'm not saying that you can't criticize feminism So why, as a feminist, am i being censored in twitter discussions RE ADA Initiative and Sarah Sharp? see tweets @ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZVjkK5QYeU0b30rGKJOGklBUU_F4PMwqCTzQCSqFOE/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZVjkK5QYeU0b30rGKJOGklB...
- quinnchr 13y ago
  I'm assuming you are a man. If that's the case, you need to be aware of the fact that when entering into a conversation about feminism you are an outsider. Your views, while important and worth discussion, should not dominate the conversation. Feminist discourse is one of the few places where women's thoughts and idea's are allowed to be the dominate ones. As men we have to take a step back, and realize we enjoy that privilege in every other discourse.
  - mpfollett 13y ago
    In fact, I am a woman, and have been a feminist since 1974. With all due respect, feminist discourse is best when all stakeholders participate. Silencing any point of view is disrespectful and not productive. Freedom of speech seems to be a problem in this whole discussion. Wondering why?
    - quinnchr 13y ago
      My apologies. I don't know why you were censored, I'm assuming you know way more about this than me. I will say though I think it's dishonest to characterize feminist discourse by what happens on twitter. If this is happening outside of the internet, in feminist groups and academic discourse, I agree that it is problematic, but not a problem that is unique to feminism.
      - mpfollett 13y ago
        Dishonest? Dude, you're talking to a Quaker. Here is my wish. Will Geek Feminists Please Relax!? I am perplexed by the negativity of the ‘geek feminist’ movement, and concerned about the inevitable backlash that could set women back in the STEM community. At a pivotal time in the evolution of corporate culture, when exciting creative cultures are forming, geek feminists are making demands on what they define as good and bad behavior, creating controversy and yes, hysteria, over any male behavior that is ‘offensive.’ (My personal apology to Mr. Hank)see rational explanation @ http://www.businessinsider.com/adria-richards-dongle-and-forking-jokes-2013-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/adria-richards-dongle-and-for... These tactics only create tension and mistrust, making assimilation into the STEM community more difficult for women. It would be tragic if women were seen as monolithic, and further excluded from a community that provides so many benefits for women. For example Sarah Allen, founder of Blazing Cloud says being a programmer has been a great career for her as a mom. "I don't think you can be a woman in our society and not experience sexism, so, sure, but that's not the point," she says. Rana Florida, CEO at the Creative Class tells her team members “I don’t care when you work, how you work, or where you work,” Her new book Upgrade describes cutting edge corporate culture, with flexibility and responsibility Meanwhile, Tony Hsieh of Zappos is transforming the derelict remains of Downtown Las Vegas into a “community where businesses can thrive.” ...where everyone feels like they can hang out all the time and where there’s not a huge distinction between working and playing.” If the geek feminists think these cultures will welcome a demanding group of women, I suggest they think again. They are doing a disservice to all women, and men, and everyone else on the planet.
Tichy 13y ago
I did not say who or what creates the patriarchy - what matters to feminism is that women have to be seen as a disadvantaged group of people. As for gender and toys, obviously industries don't usually have our best interests in their hearts, they care for themselves. One theory I have heard is that by creating gender specific toys they can sell more stuff. Same goes for advertising. To complain about advertising (and gender branding of toys) seems a bit silly. The question is however, are we victims to advertising and toy industries? Feminism seems to think women are too weak to find their own identity. (And boys, too - but feminists seem to think the boys world is more desirable somehow). Should we strive for censorship in toy products? That is the real underlying question? Should there be a law against using pink in toys? Of course no feminists thinks they are striving for such laws, but it is what they are effectively asking for. Personally I think it would be a bad idea to regulate such things. Feminists tend to think they are actually fighters for tolerance, but they are not - they fight for intolerance. Because if some girl decides she wants to paint her room pink, shouldn't she be allowed to do that, too? I have no gripes against female self-help circles encouraging each others to use clothes and toys in other colors than pink, or encouraging each other to study maths instead of gender studies at university. If they think it is important to them, why not - they can do whatever they want. That is not what feminists are usually doing, though - instead they complain that they are victims of an evil (patriarchy controlled) industry that determines their gender roles against their wills. So they are the victims again, calling for daddy (in the form of the government) to rescue them instead of making their own fate. I can't bring myself to respect that. As for gender being learned or inherited - it seems unlikely to me that preferences for pink are inherited (indeed historically pink used to be the color for men, or so I have read). However, there are undeniable biological differences between men and women. As I said, those create different incentives. For example sex is much more risky for women than for men, therefore women think twice before having sex with somebody. Having children is a much bigger investment for women than for men. Those things are bound to have an effect (on average). Also while you are pregnant you can not easily go and fight a war, or plow a field. That is just the way it is. And as I said, if you are born as a man, you can not simply decide you want to live like a woman and count on becoming a stay at home dad. Why would women bear your kids AND work for you, too? On average women will want the man to work in exchange for providing the birthing service (which, as a man who has witnessed the birth of my son, I find fair enough, birth is no picnic). The other way (live like a man if you are born a woman) is much easier because men don't get special treatments in society, in fact I think there are some cultures where women can decide to live like men and forgo the advantages women enjoy - they then have to wear men's clothes for the rest of their lives (see http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-who-have-lived-their-lives-as-men/ http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-... )
mpfollett 13y ago
>And I'm not saying that you can't criticize feminism" It seems I am censored on twitter whenever I mention the feminist ideas of Camille Paglia. Perhaps geek feminist fear her point of view? Feminism is not monolithic, and all voices should be heard. Perhaps her views on 'protecting women' (she sez it is 'efantilizing') is not agreeable to geek feminists? see her Plyboy interview @ http://privat.ub.uib.no/BUBSY/playboy.htm http://privat.ub.uib.no/BUBSY/playboy.htm
- Tichy 13y ago
  Interesting interview, unfortunately she really says some things that are rather extreme, such as HIV being nature's punishment for homosexuality. Too bad. How does the censoring on Twitter work? I did not understand your screenshot. Unfortunately discussing anything on social networks is a waste of time anyway. If the network itself doesn't censor you (I hear Facebook also does not allow questioning of feminism), then the personal filters of other people will just mute you. And stuff you post to social networks is essentially lost because they are walled gardens, so nobody will find your brilliant arguments from yesterday again, ever.

foobarbazqux 13y ago

> After making your observations give some deep thought to whether or not gender is a social construct, and whether gender differences are learned or inherited. Why is this always framed as either/or? Why can't gender differences derive from both society and biology?

quinnchr 13y ago
They certainly can be a mix, and that's what I personally believe. I didn't mean to present them as mutually exclusive ideas.

mpfollett 13y ago

>And I'm not saying that you can't criticize feminism So why, as a feminist, am i being censored in twitter discussions RE ADA Initiative and Sarah Sharp? see tweets @ https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZVjkK5QYeU0b30rGKJOGklBUU_F4PMwqCTzQCSqFOE/edit https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aZVjkK5QYeU0b30rGKJOGklB...

quinnchr 13y ago
I'm assuming you are a man. If that's the case, you need to be aware of the fact that when entering into a conversation about feminism you are an outsider. Your views, while important and worth discussion, should not dominate the conversation. Feminist discourse is one of the few places where women's thoughts and idea's are allowed to be the dominate ones. As men we have to take a step back, and realize we enjoy that privilege in every other discourse.
- mpfollett 13y ago
  In fact, I am a woman, and have been a feminist since 1974. With all due respect, feminist discourse is best when all stakeholders participate. Silencing any point of view is disrespectful and not productive. Freedom of speech seems to be a problem in this whole discussion. Wondering why?
  - quinnchr 13y ago
    My apologies. I don't know why you were censored, I'm assuming you know way more about this than me. I will say though I think it's dishonest to characterize feminist discourse by what happens on twitter. If this is happening outside of the internet, in feminist groups and academic discourse, I agree that it is problematic, but not a problem that is unique to feminism.
    - mpfollett 13y ago
      Dishonest? Dude, you're talking to a Quaker. Here is my wish. Will Geek Feminists Please Relax!? I am perplexed by the negativity of the ‘geek feminist’ movement, and concerned about the inevitable backlash that could set women back in the STEM community. At a pivotal time in the evolution of corporate culture, when exciting creative cultures are forming, geek feminists are making demands on what they define as good and bad behavior, creating controversy and yes, hysteria, over any male behavior that is ‘offensive.’ (My personal apology to Mr. Hank)see rational explanation @ http://www.businessinsider.com/adria-richards-dongle-and-forking-jokes-2013-3 http://www.businessinsider.com/adria-richards-dongle-and-for... These tactics only create tension and mistrust, making assimilation into the STEM community more difficult for women. It would be tragic if women were seen as monolithic, and further excluded from a community that provides so many benefits for women. For example Sarah Allen, founder of Blazing Cloud says being a programmer has been a great career for her as a mom. "I don't think you can be a woman in our society and not experience sexism, so, sure, but that's not the point," she says. Rana Florida, CEO at the Creative Class tells her team members “I don’t care when you work, how you work, or where you work,” Her new book Upgrade describes cutting edge corporate culture, with flexibility and responsibility Meanwhile, Tony Hsieh of Zappos is transforming the derelict remains of Downtown Las Vegas into a “community where businesses can thrive.” ...where everyone feels like they can hang out all the time and where there’s not a huge distinction between working and playing.” If the geek feminists think these cultures will welcome a demanding group of women, I suggest they think again. They are doing a disservice to all women, and men, and everyone else on the planet.

Tichy 13y ago

I did not say who or what creates the patriarchy - what matters to feminism is that women have to be seen as a disadvantaged group of people. As for gender and toys, obviously industries don't usually have our best interests in their hearts, they care for themselves. One theory I have heard is that by creating gender specific toys they can sell more stuff. Same goes for advertising. To complain about advertising (and gender branding of toys) seems a bit silly. The question is however, are we victims to advertising and toy industries? Feminism seems to think women are too weak to find their own identity. (And boys, too - but feminists seem to think the boys world is more desirable somehow). Should we strive for censorship in toy products? That is the real underlying question? Should there be a law against using pink in toys? Of course no feminists thinks they are striving for such laws, but it is what they are effectively asking for. Personally I think it would be a bad idea to regulate such things. Feminists tend to think they are actually fighters for tolerance, but they are not - they fight for intolerance. Because if some girl decides she wants to paint her room pink, shouldn't she be allowed to do that, too? I have no gripes against female self-help circles encouraging each others to use clothes and toys in other colors than pink, or encouraging each other to study maths instead of gender studies at university. If they think it is important to them, why not - they can do whatever they want. That is not what feminists are usually doing, though - instead they complain that they are victims of an evil (patriarchy controlled) industry that determines their gender roles against their wills. So they are the victims again, calling for daddy (in the form of the government) to rescue them instead of making their own fate. I can't bring myself to respect that. As for gender being learned or inherited - it seems unlikely to me that preferences for pink are inherited (indeed historically pink used to be the color for men, or so I have read). However, there are undeniable biological differences between men and women. As I said, those create different incentives. For example sex is much more risky for women than for men, therefore women think twice before having sex with somebody. Having children is a much bigger investment for women than for men. Those things are bound to have an effect (on average). Also while you are pregnant you can not easily go and fight a war, or plow a field. That is just the way it is. And as I said, if you are born as a man, you can not simply decide you want to live like a woman and count on becoming a stay at home dad. Why would women bear your kids AND work for you, too? On average women will want the man to work in exchange for providing the birthing service (which, as a man who has witnessed the birth of my son, I find fair enough, birth is no picnic). The other way (live like a man if you are born a woman) is much easier because men don't get special treatments in society, in fact I think there are some cultures where women can decide to live like men and forgo the advantages women enjoy - they then have to wear men's clothes for the rest of their lives (see http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-who-have-lived-their-lives-as-men/ http://petapixel.com/2012/12/26/portraits-of-albanian-women-... )

mpfollett 13y ago

>And I'm not saying that you can't criticize feminism" It seems I am censored on twitter whenever I mention the feminist ideas of Camille Paglia. Perhaps geek feminist fear her point of view? Feminism is not monolithic, and all voices should be heard. Perhaps her views on 'protecting women' (she sez it is 'efantilizing') is not agreeable to geek feminists? see her Plyboy interview @ http://privat.ub.uib.no/BUBSY/playboy.htm http://privat.ub.uib.no/BUBSY/playboy.htm

Tichy 13y ago
Interesting interview, unfortunately she really says some things that are rather extreme, such as HIV being nature's punishment for homosexuality. Too bad. How does the censoring on Twitter work? I did not understand your screenshot. Unfortunately discussing anything on social networks is a waste of time anyway. If the network itself doesn't censor you (I hear Facebook also does not allow questioning of feminism), then the personal filters of other people will just mute you. And stuff you post to social networks is essentially lost because they are walled gardens, so nobody will find your brilliant arguments from yesterday again, ever.