4 ms·

All I can say in response to this is that design is easier said than done. We didn't copy, we came to the same conclusions. I'm not saying those are the only co

by aroman 13y ago

All I can say in response to this is that design is easier said than done. We didn't copy, we came to the same conclusions. I'm not saying those are the only conclusions, but we're not human-computer interaction theorists, we build practical things. Sometimes practicality trumps purity, and sometimes purity trumps idealism. If you're criticizing us for not being perfect and not innovating enough, I can't argue. But don't assume (I am explicitly rejecting the claim) that we simply love OS X and want to make our own free version of it, or that we treat Apple as some sort of standard of "proper design". All I can do is invite you to come down to the trenches with us and see what it's all about. I think you'll find it's harder than you might imagine. P.S It absolutely would not have been easier to find better categories. Those categories are the result of the manual naming tens of thousands of Debian packages going back a decade or more. We give users the option of browsing (as has been the tradition on the Linux desktop for the last 7+ years) by the traditional categories, or by using a free-form fluid list. P.P.S Frankly, I find your dismissal of our design efforts mildly insulting, though I know you only meant to provide constructive and thoughtful criticism (which I appreciate, at any rate). A bit of constructive criticism for you would be to avoid assuming that because something seems like an obvious solution that it must have been the first or easiest solution. This can come across as arrogant and belittling, and has the tendency to undermine the constructivity of your feedback.

onli 13y ago
And that there are exactly four of them so it turned out like the well-established excellence of Apples design is an happy accident as well? ;) Come on - it is highly unlikely you (=the project) would've arrived at the current result without some form of OSX influence. Anyway, that's beside the point, and if you find that insulting I won't repeat it here - probably enough comments in that direction for now. Trying to be constructive: You might want to try to use visual distinction to minimize the appearance of copying, especially if that wasn't what happened. Things like the font and the OSX-icon are unnecessary in every case. Thanks for the invitation, if it's a serious one. I'm using my own ambiance-themed icewm-desktop with my own dock at the bottom, had a look at a lot of window managers, and HCI is what I do atm. If I someday want to work on a desktop for more user than myself I might even remember the offer and will count on a proper introduction^^ Part of my point was that it is harder than just to copy Apple. I'm happy to hear you say that. In every case I give you the benefit of the doubt that it might behave so much in its own way that the resemblance would be insignificant when actually using it. And have fun with your release - I bet it will be quite popular.
- boyaka 13y ago
  Resemblance to OSX seems to be quite significantly negative to you, but I would wager it is not for most people. I would also wager that unique visuals are not important for the mass majority of users, and that this also can have a negative impact on usability for many of them. I might have older icons because I'm running Lion on this hard drive (I've got Mountain Lion on my other drive, I don't recall any icon differences) but their icons do not look the same as mine. Your previous comment was a slew of accusations that they have copied OSX (with few examples of such copying), along with ranting about how unspectacular Apple is. They never stated there was no influence from OSX; it's obvious there is, and there is nothing wrong with that.
  - onli 13y ago
    Two comments above my first comment micampe posted screenshots. Some of the icons are clearly lookalikes. And even if they weren't: An Apple mouse for a linux-icon is a noteworthy choice and could be called a Mac/apple-Icon even without visual resemblance of the icon style itself. I don't like it when my comments are called rants when they aren't. I tried very carefully to walk the line here, especially I didn't want to (and didn't) bash Apple. It's obvious that there is influence and I argued why that may be dangerous. Software design is in a special position, copying Apple can be a bad sign and so on... I won't repeat it.
ithakinone 13y ago
It would help you a lot if you kept a blog about how all your design exploration progresses. Later you could point people to that and say: "see, there's a process behind it". Not to mention that it would save a lot of time for those coming after you in the future.
- aroman 13y ago
  This is a good idea. We do a lot of this actually[1], but not enough. [1] e.g http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-controls http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-controls
  - coldtea 13y ago
    >In the end however, I was faced with an ultimatum. Do I change the settings app JUST to look different than OS X, and lose out on the well-established excellence of Apple's design? Which can be rephrased as: I'm a hack and could think of no original ideas of my own, so I opted to copy another OS verbatim. Thankfully Apple doesn't think that way not even for their own design -- they improve (or at least attempt to) OS X's design with each release. And they have even more excuses than you to rest on their laurels (namely, that the laurers are theirs to begin with).

by aroman 13y ago

onli 13y ago

And that there are exactly four of them so it turned out like the well-established excellence of Apples design is an happy accident as well? ;) Come on - it is highly unlikely you (=the project) would've arrived at the current result without some form of OSX influence. Anyway, that's beside the point, and if you find that insulting I won't repeat it here - probably enough comments in that direction for now. Trying to be constructive: You might want to try to use visual distinction to minimize the appearance of copying, especially if that wasn't what happened. Things like the font and the OSX-icon are unnecessary in every case. Thanks for the invitation, if it's a serious one. I'm using my own ambiance-themed icewm-desktop with my own dock at the bottom, had a look at a lot of window managers, and HCI is what I do atm. If I someday want to work on a desktop for more user than myself I might even remember the offer and will count on a proper introduction^^ Part of my point was that it is harder than just to copy Apple. I'm happy to hear you say that. In every case I give you the benefit of the doubt that it might behave so much in its own way that the resemblance would be insignificant when actually using it. And have fun with your release - I bet it will be quite popular.

boyaka 13y ago
Resemblance to OSX seems to be quite significantly negative to you, but I would wager it is not for most people. I would also wager that unique visuals are not important for the mass majority of users, and that this also can have a negative impact on usability for many of them. I might have older icons because I'm running Lion on this hard drive (I've got Mountain Lion on my other drive, I don't recall any icon differences) but their icons do not look the same as mine. Your previous comment was a slew of accusations that they have copied OSX (with few examples of such copying), along with ranting about how unspectacular Apple is. They never stated there was no influence from OSX; it's obvious there is, and there is nothing wrong with that.
- onli 13y ago
  Two comments above my first comment micampe posted screenshots. Some of the icons are clearly lookalikes. And even if they weren't: An Apple mouse for a linux-icon is a noteworthy choice and could be called a Mac/apple-Icon even without visual resemblance of the icon style itself. I don't like it when my comments are called rants when they aren't. I tried very carefully to walk the line here, especially I didn't want to (and didn't) bash Apple. It's obvious that there is influence and I argued why that may be dangerous. Software design is in a special position, copying Apple can be a bad sign and so on... I won't repeat it.

ithakinone 13y ago

It would help you a lot if you kept a blog about how all your design exploration progresses. Later you could point people to that and say: "see, there's a process behind it". Not to mention that it would save a lot of time for those coming after you in the future.

aroman 13y ago
This is a good idea. We do a lot of this actually[1], but not enough. [1] e.g http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-controls http://elementaryos.org/journal/whats-still-window-controls
- coldtea 13y ago
  >In the end however, I was faced with an ultimatum. Do I change the settings app JUST to look different than OS X, and lose out on the well-established excellence of Apple's design? Which can be rephrased as: I'm a hack and could think of no original ideas of my own, so I opted to copy another OS verbatim. Thankfully Apple doesn't think that way not even for their own design -- they improve (or at least attempt to) OS X's design with each release. And they have even more excuses than you to rest on their laurels (namely, that the laurers are theirs to begin with).