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I think, that´s the difference between professional programmers and hackers. Hackers cant stand to write code without understanding what is happening behind the

I think, that´s the difference between professional programmers and hackers. Hackers cant stand to write code without understanding what is happening behind the scenes. Therefore they need to go deep into their codes and understand each aspects. In the other hand, when your code for a big company and follow a lot of rules and demands, you are more inclined to use solutions like frameworks, because you are not having real fun, your are just ... working. Make sense for you ?

dryicerx 17y ago
This is what I would guess at first sight too, but reality disagrees: it seems lot of people around HN are very religious of their frameworks... I think the term "hacker" has two definitions around here and in the web-development world. * Those who are interested in the internals of the system at the lowest level (non framework hackers) * Those interested in developing and hacking the framework it self as a platform and knowing all the details and hacks on it (framework hackers). Regarding the non-hacker just-programming-for-work people, I totally agree with you.
- Scriptor 17y ago
  Even in the web-development world, that might be too general of a description. I think either type of hacker would be happy with using a framework if it wasn't closely related to what they need to do. For example, my latest app has a ton of Javascript code, but still needed some functionality on the server. I used Django to get that part done with quickly. For the actual Javascript, I used jQuery as a library, not an application framework. As a side note, I feel Django does a pretty good job in being transparent. Once I've got it set up, it's transparent where in the view what loads and calls what, even if it is the loading/calling of templates and models. On the other hand, I never did get very far into Rails.
tdavis 17y ago
I would disagree. I use frameworks because (a) they save me loads of time and (b) I already know how all that garbage works anyway. I know how HTTP cookies work; I have no desire to implement sessions myself because they're a waste of time and, frankly, proper cookie handling is a pain in the ass. That being said, I know programmers who don't know SQL outside of an ORM, and if it hasn't bitten them in the ass yet, I am very confident that some day it will. I'm a hacker in that I will occasionally write my own http client or something like that, just to learn a new language or networking engine. I'm a professional hacker in that I'd just as soon use one already created by a competent person (or persons) and use my time to write something more interesting. The mantra of "good coders code, great steal/reuse" has, for my entire career, more or less proven to be true.

dryicerx 17y ago

This is what I would guess at first sight too, but reality disagrees: it seems lot of people around HN are very religious of their frameworks... I think the term "hacker" has two definitions around here and in the web-development world. * Those who are interested in the internals of the system at the lowest level (non framework hackers) * Those interested in developing and hacking the framework it self as a platform and knowing all the details and hacks on it (framework hackers). Regarding the non-hacker just-programming-for-work people, I totally agree with you.

Scriptor 17y ago
Even in the web-development world, that might be too general of a description. I think either type of hacker would be happy with using a framework if it wasn't closely related to what they need to do. For example, my latest app has a ton of Javascript code, but still needed some functionality on the server. I used Django to get that part done with quickly. For the actual Javascript, I used jQuery as a library, not an application framework. As a side note, I feel Django does a pretty good job in being transparent. Once I've got it set up, it's transparent where in the view what loads and calls what, even if it is the loading/calling of templates and models. On the other hand, I never did get very far into Rails.

tdavis 17y ago

I would disagree. I use frameworks because (a) they save me loads of time and (b) I already know how all that garbage works anyway. I know how HTTP cookies work; I have no desire to implement sessions myself because they're a waste of time and, frankly, proper cookie handling is a pain in the ass. That being said, I know programmers who don't know SQL outside of an ORM, and if it hasn't bitten them in the ass yet, I am very confident that some day it will. I'm a hacker in that I will occasionally write my own http client or something like that, just to learn a new language or networking engine. I'm a professional hacker in that I'd just as soon use one already created by a competent person (or persons) and use my time to write something more interesting. The mantra of "good coders code, great steal/reuse" has, for my entire career, more or less proven to be true.