7 ms·

Consciousness is just an illusion. It is not a useful concept either. It won't help you to program robots, for example. I was very surprised to learn that acco

by Tichy 13y ago

Consciousness is just an illusion. It is not a useful concept either. It won't help you to program robots, for example. I was very surprised to learn that according to Less Wrong, the concept of "Zombies" is accepted by a lot of researchers of consciousness: http://lesswrong.com/lw/p7/zombies_zombies/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/p7/zombies_zombies/ A zombie here is defined as a person that is exactly like a conscious person, down to every atom, but is not conscious. I think that is complete nonsense.

guard-of-terra 13y ago
It will help me to understand myself. That's much more important than programming robots. What if I don't actually need any robots in the first place?
- Tichy 13y ago
  In my opinion it won't help you, because it is just an illusion. If it would help you understand yourself, it would also help you build a robot that is similar to you. But OK, that is just an opinion, I lack the energy to write more atm.
mdda 13y ago
But the zombie idea is an interesting thought experiment. If the zombie isn't conscious then it also (likely) rules out the quantum hand-wavery of the OP - since any physical quantum effects would be replicated. It draws out the distinction pretty well.
- Tichy 13y ago
  It is interesting, I am just puzzled that people think such zombies are conceivable.
mistercow 13y ago
The problem I have with saying "consciousness is an illusion" is sort of similar to saying "God was the first cause". It pushes the question one layer away, because then the next obvious question is "an illusion to what, exactly?" How do you produce the illusion of qualia to something that does not experience qualia?
- Tichy 13y ago
  It rather seems to me talking about "qualia" is pushing the question one step away, or creating a circular argument. If I attach a light sensor to my Arduino and then upload code to the arduino that says "if sensor active, flash light", I'd say the arduino has a "qualia" of light. Perceiving light flips some bit in the arduino. That's all there is to it.
  - mistercow 13y ago
    Except that non-sensory experiences also produce qualia, and some drugs produce qualia that are never triggered in ordinary experience. The question of whether qualia are real is still very much the subject of debate, and not something you can easily just wave away like that.
    - Tichy 13y ago
      I don't see the difficulty with that? If I read Wikipedia right qualia basically just means "subjective impressions"? Alright then, compute around for a while on your Arduino, and you get some subjective impressions. For example you could run some simulation that is known to exhibit randomness (like some cellular automatons) and then just pick some state of that. I think this just boils down to the old and tired argument that "computers can only do what humans told them to do, therefore they can't be conscious", which is just misinformed. If I tell the computer car to turn left every time it sees a duck, I will have no idea where it will end up. Also building a "drug me" button into an Arduino seems trivial. You could XOR all your data if the button is pressed, or do whatever else you fancy (even trigger a completely different program). I don't find drug experiences puzzling at all. If you want, overclock the Arduino so that it produces some computing errors. Hey presto, your Arduino has a drug experience.
      - mistercow 13y ago
        The question is not whether computers can have qualia, the question is whether qualia are real. The argument goes that if your Arduino is doing the kind of "computing around" necessary to have subjective impressions, then it is experiencing qualia, and it is in some sense conscious (although not, of course, if philosophical zombies are possible).
DennisP 13y ago
The statement "consciousness is an illusion" has always struck me as a contradiction, since the nature of illusion is that there's something perceiving it.
- Tichy 13y ago
  You don't need consciousness to perceive something. It's just electrons interacting with atoms.
  - brandonhsiao 13y ago
    Saying that consciousness is just an illusion created by reacting atoms makes sense from a third-person perspective. It does sound inconceivable that a zombie could be the exact same as a "conscious" person atomically but simply lack a so-called consciousness. If we're talking about a person Bob, sure, all his thoughts are just atomic reactions. But if that's the case, why does the first-person point of view exist? Yes, there will be a bunch of people, all supposedly with their first-person points of view, but why are you inside yourself? What is different about your illusion of consciousness such that you are inside it from the first-person point of view? If consciousness is just an illusion created by chemical reactions, it shouldn't exist at all. Consciousness is a first-person thing, and were it just a bunch of reactions, no one would be able to call themselves I.
    - Tichy 13y ago
      It's really easy to make a computer say "I".
      - omarchowdhury 13y ago
        sigh
      - brandonhsiao 13y ago
        Yes, as it is for a person in the third person. Are you essentially a complex computer? If so, why do you experience I? Why do "you" exist? Why is there not simply a Tichy in the universe acting on its own accord?

by Tichy 13y ago

guard-of-terra 13y ago

It will help me to understand myself. That's much more important than programming robots. What if I don't actually need any robots in the first place?

Tichy 13y ago
In my opinion it won't help you, because it is just an illusion. If it would help you understand yourself, it would also help you build a robot that is similar to you. But OK, that is just an opinion, I lack the energy to write more atm.

mdda 13y ago

But the zombie idea is an interesting thought experiment. If the zombie isn't conscious then it also (likely) rules out the quantum hand-wavery of the OP - since any physical quantum effects would be replicated. It draws out the distinction pretty well.

Tichy 13y ago
It is interesting, I am just puzzled that people think such zombies are conceivable.

mistercow 13y ago

The problem I have with saying "consciousness is an illusion" is sort of similar to saying "God was the first cause". It pushes the question one layer away, because then the next obvious question is "an illusion to what, exactly?" How do you produce the illusion of qualia to something that does not experience qualia?

Tichy 13y ago
It rather seems to me talking about "qualia" is pushing the question one step away, or creating a circular argument. If I attach a light sensor to my Arduino and then upload code to the arduino that says "if sensor active, flash light", I'd say the arduino has a "qualia" of light. Perceiving light flips some bit in the arduino. That's all there is to it.
- mistercow 13y ago
  Except that non-sensory experiences also produce qualia, and some drugs produce qualia that are never triggered in ordinary experience. The question of whether qualia are real is still very much the subject of debate, and not something you can easily just wave away like that.
  - Tichy 13y ago
    I don't see the difficulty with that? If I read Wikipedia right qualia basically just means "subjective impressions"? Alright then, compute around for a while on your Arduino, and you get some subjective impressions. For example you could run some simulation that is known to exhibit randomness (like some cellular automatons) and then just pick some state of that. I think this just boils down to the old and tired argument that "computers can only do what humans told them to do, therefore they can't be conscious", which is just misinformed. If I tell the computer car to turn left every time it sees a duck, I will have no idea where it will end up. Also building a "drug me" button into an Arduino seems trivial. You could XOR all your data if the button is pressed, or do whatever else you fancy (even trigger a completely different program). I don't find drug experiences puzzling at all. If you want, overclock the Arduino so that it produces some computing errors. Hey presto, your Arduino has a drug experience.
    - mistercow 13y ago
      The question is not whether computers can have qualia, the question is whether qualia are real. The argument goes that if your Arduino is doing the kind of "computing around" necessary to have subjective impressions, then it is experiencing qualia, and it is in some sense conscious (although not, of course, if philosophical zombies are possible).

DennisP 13y ago

The statement "consciousness is an illusion" has always struck me as a contradiction, since the nature of illusion is that there's something perceiving it.

Tichy 13y ago
You don't need consciousness to perceive something. It's just electrons interacting with atoms.
- brandonhsiao 13y ago
  Saying that consciousness is just an illusion created by reacting atoms makes sense from a third-person perspective. It does sound inconceivable that a zombie could be the exact same as a "conscious" person atomically but simply lack a so-called consciousness. If we're talking about a person Bob, sure, all his thoughts are just atomic reactions. But if that's the case, why does the first-person point of view exist? Yes, there will be a bunch of people, all supposedly with their first-person points of view, but why are you inside yourself? What is different about your illusion of consciousness such that you are inside it from the first-person point of view? If consciousness is just an illusion created by chemical reactions, it shouldn't exist at all. Consciousness is a first-person thing, and were it just a bunch of reactions, no one would be able to call themselves I.
  - Tichy 13y ago
    It's really easy to make a computer say "I".
    - omarchowdhury 13y ago
      sigh
    - brandonhsiao 13y ago
      Yes, as it is for a person in the third person. Are you essentially a complex computer? If so, why do you experience I? Why do "you" exist? Why is there not simply a Tichy in the universe acting on its own accord?